C-3 Army order of battle, movement and deployment

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nowy, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    C3 game was announced as remake of C1 gameplay style. However there were lot of flaws in pervious Cossacks games. Especially army order of battle, movement and deployment on battlefields were horrible spoiled.

    I wonder why GSC can not make these things better.
    What is the problem to implement well organized armies which AI and players could properly lead into battles?

    Army order of battle, movement and deployment on battlefields had characteristic elements.
    There were well organized formations, squad groups, commanders and specialized units.

    Why AI and players in Cossacks game can not create well organized army?
    Is it hard form squad groups in Vanguard, Main force, Reserve and Rearguard?

    There could be simplified organization in the game for XVII and XVIII centuries. This could looks as fallows:

    Army order of battle for c.a. 2,000 units in XVII c.

    Vanguard
    Cavalry squad 1 x 45 units
    Pikeneer squad 1 x 72 units
    Musketeer squads 2 x 36 units
    Artillery squad 1 x 3 cannons and 1 howitzer

    Other units assigned to vanguard, if they will available
    General with 1 Adjutant
    Sapper squad 1 x 12 units
    Train horse drawn wagons
    Ammunition caissons squad 1 x 2 wagons
    Baggage, equipage and supply wagon train squad 1 x 2 wagons

    Main force
    Infantry
    Musketeer squads 8 x 36
    Pikeneer squads 4 x 72
    Mercenary squads 2 x 36, if they will available

    Generals assigned to infantry, if they will available
    1 General with 2 Adjutants
    2 Generals, each one with 1 Adjutant

    Cavalry
    Heavy cavalry squads 2x45
    Dragoon squads 2x45
    Other cavalry 2x45
    Mercenary 2x 40 if they will available

    Generals assigned to cavalry, if they will available
    1 General with 3 Adjutants
    2 Generals, each one with 2 Adjutants
    4 Generals, each one with 1 Adjutant

    Artillery
    cannons squads 2 x 3 guns
    howitzers 2 x 1 gun
    mortars squads 3 x 4 = 12 mortars

    General Commanders assigned to main force, if they will available
    1 Supreme commander with 5 Adjutants
    1 General with 4 Adjutants
    1 General with 3 Adjutants

    Train horse drawn wagons
    Engineering train squad 1x2 wagons
    Ammunition caisson squads 2x2 wagons
    Baggage, equipage and supply wagon train squads 2 x 2 wagons

    Reserve force
    Infantry
    Musketeer squads 4x36
    Pikeneer squads 2x72

    Generals assigned to infantry, if they will available
    1 General with 2 Adjutants
    1 General with 1 Adjutant

    Cavalry
    Heavy cavalry squads 1x45
    Dragoon squads 1x45
    Other cavalry 1x45
    Mercenary 1x 40, if they will available

    Generals assigned to cavalry, if they will available
    1 General with 2 Adjutants
    2 Generals, each one with 1 Adjutants

    Artillery
    cannons squad 1x3 guns
    howitzer 1x1 gun
    mortar squads 3 x 4 = 12 mortars

    Other units assigned to reserve force, if they will available
    General with 3 Adjutants
    Train horse drawn wagons
    Engineering train squad 1x2 wagons
    Ammunition caissons squads x2 wagons
    Baggage, equipage and supply wagon train squads 2 x 2 wagons

    Rearguard force

    Cavalry squad 1 x 45 units
    Pikeneer squad 1 x 75 units
    Musketeer squads 2 x 36 units
    Artillery squad 1 x 3 cannons and 1 howitzer

    Other units assigned to rearguard, if they will available
    General with 1 Adjutant
    Sapper squad 1 x 12 units
    Train horse drawn wagons
    Ammunition caisson squad 1 x 2 wagons
    Baggage, equipage and supply wagon train squad 1 x 2 wagons

    Army deployment on battlefield in XVII c.

    Vanguard form Army's right or left wing, musketeers on pikeneers squad flanks, cavalry on wing’s flank. General with Adjutant assigned to vanguard stay behind squads. Sapper and train horse drawn wagons squads stay in the rear. Train horse drawn wagons squads stay in the rear or around camp.

    Main force hold central position.
    Musketeers and Pikeneers form checkered battle line, musketeers on flanks of each pikeneer column formation. Generals with Adjutants assigned to infantry stay behind infantry squads.

    Cavalry stay on flanks or behind infantry in second line, heavy and other cavalry, and dragons on both flanks. Generals with Adjutants assigned to cavalry stay behind cavalry squads.

    Cannons in front of main battle line or between musketeer and pikeneer squads. Howitzer behind cannons. Sappers could build field works or stay behind artillery guns.

    Supreme Commander, Generals with Adjutants assigned to main force stay behind main force squads.
    Train wagons and mortars stay behind Army creating military camp, circle or double line in tabor tactics.

    Reserve stay behind main force deployed in similar shape or centrally massed in columns, ready to actions. General Commanders with Adjutants assigned to reserve force stay behind reserve squads.

    Rearguard form Army's right or left wing, musketeers on pikeneers squad flanks, cavalry on wing's flank.
    General with Adjutant assigned to rearguard stay behind vanguard. Sapper and train horse drawn wagons squads stay in the rear. Train horse drawn wagons squads stay in the rear or around camp.

    Such Army order of battle, even for 8 players will looks much better than mobs units massed in few places.

    EDIT: Added General Commanders with Adjutants, included baggage, equipage and supply train wagons.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  2. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Army order of battle for c.a. 2,000 units in XVIII c.

    Vanguard


    Light cavalry squad 1 x 45 units
    Skirmisher squad 1 x 12 units, musket armed infantry,
    Light infantry squad 1 x 72 units e.g. Chasseur, Grenz, Highlander etc.
    Musketeer squad 1 x 72 units
    Artillery squad 1 x 3 cannons and 1 howitzer

    Other units assigned to vanguard, if they will available
    General with 2 Adjutants
    Sapper squad 1 x 12 units
    Train horse drawn wagons
    Ammunition caissons squad 1 x 2 wagons
    Baggage, equipage and supply wagon train squad 1 x 2 wagons

    Main force
    Infantry
    Skirmisher squad 1 x 12 units, musket armed infantry,
    Light infantry squad 1 x 72 e.g. Chasseur, Grenz, Highlander etc.
    Musketeer squads 4 x 72
    Pikeneer squads 2 x 72
    Grenadier squad 1 x 72

    Generals with Adjutants assigned to infantry, if they will available
    1 General with 2 Adjutants
    2 Generals with 1 Adjutant

    Cavalry
    Heavy cavalry squads 2x45
    Dragoon squads 2x45
    Light cavalry 2x45
    National cavalry 2x 40, if they will available

    Generals with Adjutants assigned to cavalry, if they will available
    1 General with 3 Adjutants
    2 Generals, each one with 2 Adjutants
    4 Generals, each one with 1 Adjutant

    Artillery
    cannons squads 2x3 guns
    howitzers 2x1 gun
    mortars squads 3 x 4 = 12 mortars

    General Commanders assigned to main force, if they will available
    1 Supreme commander with 5 Adjutants
    1 General with 4 Adjutants
    1 General with 3 Adjutants

    Other units assigned to main force, if they will available
    Train horse drawn wagons
    Engineering train squad 1x2 wagons
    Ammunition caissons squads 2x2 wagons
    Baggage, equipage and supply wagon train squads 2 x 2 wagons

    Reserve force
    Infantry
    Skirmisher squad 1 x 12 units, musket armed infantry,
    Light infantry squad 1 x 72 units e.g. Chasseur, Grenz, Highlander etc.
    Musketeer squads 2 x 72
    Pikeneer squads 2 x 72
    Grenadier squad 1 x 72

    Generals with Adjutants assigned to infantry, if they will available
    1 General with 2 Adjutants
    1 General with 1 Adjutant

    Cavalry
    Heavy cavalry squad 1x45
    Dragoon squad 1x45
    Light cavalry squad 1x45
    National cavalry squad 1x 40, if they will available

    Generals with Adjutants assigned to cavalry, if they will available
    1 General with 2 Adjutants
    2 Generals, each one with 1 Adjutants

    Artillery
    cannons squad 1x3 guns
    howitzer 1x1 gun
    mortar squads 3 x 4 = 12 mortars

    Other units assigned to reserve force, if they will available
    1 General with 3 Adjutants
    Train horse drawn wagons
    Engineering train squad 1x2 wagons
    Ammunition caissons squads x2 wagons
    Baggage, equipage and supply wagon train squads 2 x 2 wagons

    Rearguard force
    Light Cavalry squad 1 x 45 units
    Skirmisher squad 1 x 12 units, musket armed infantry,
    Grenadier squad 1 x 72
    Musketeer squad 1 x 75 units
    Artillery squad 1 x 3 cannons and 1 howitzer

    Other units assigned to rearguard, if they will available
    General with 1 Adjutant
    Sapper squad 1 x 12 units
    Train horse drawn wagons
    Ammunition caissons squad 1 x 2 wagons
    Baggage, equipage and supply wagon train squad 1 x 2 wagons

    Army deployment on battlefield in XVIII c.

    Vanguard form Army's right or left wing, musketeers, light infantry and skirmisher squads in front of vanguard and cavalry squad on flank. General with Adjutants assigned to vanguard stay behind squads. Sappers could build field works or stay behind artillery guns. Train horse drawn wagons squads stay in the rear or around camp.

    Main force hold central position.
    Musketeers and Pikeneers squads form checkered battle line, light infantry on left flank and grenadier squad on right flank.
    Generals with Adjutants assigned to infantry stay behind infantry squads.

    Cavalry stay on flanks or behind infantry in second line, heavy and other cavalry, and dragons on both flanks.
    Generals with Adjutants assigned to cavalry stay behind infantry squads.

    Cannons in front of main battle line or between musketeer and pikeneer squads. Howitzer behind cannons. Sappers could build field works or stay behind artillery guns.

    Supreme Commander, Generals with Adjutants assigned to main force stay behind main force squads.

    Train wagons and mortars stay behind Army creating military camp, circle or double line in tabor tactics.

    Reserve stay behind main force deployed in similar shape or centrally massed in columns, ready to actions. General Commanders with Adjutants assigned to reserve force stay behind reserve squads.

    Rearguard form Army's right or left wing, musketeer, grenadier and skirmisher squads in front of rearguard and cavalry squad on flank. General with Adjutants assigned to rearguard stay behind squads. Sappers could build field works or stay behind artillery guns. Train horse drawn wagons squads stay in the rear or around camp.

    EDIT2: Added General Commanders with Adjutants, included baggage, equipage and supply train wagons.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  3. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    What is one mans flaw, is another mans preferred style of game play.

    C1 BTW ( which C3 is to be a recreation of ) was not a historical recreation game, it was an arcade style battle simulator based on 18th, and 19th century Europe.

    While these are nice well presented thoughts, They might get a better response placing this in the Modding section?
     
    [RO]Proof likes this.
  4. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Game play styles of course are personal preferences, but it would be good when historically based game will include historically known rules, tactics, squads, formations, units and army organization.

    Maybe C1 BTW game was arcade style battle simulator based on 17th and 18th century Europe, but it would be good when such RTS could include basic things adequate for represented era.

    So, C3 game should include better basic things.
    Army order of battle, squad movement and formation deployment on battlefields in the game needs improvements.

    C1 had horrible spoiled these things. All we remember crazy mixed mobs, blobbed masses in few places, disorderly fighting clone units, insane individual reinforcement strings marching from barracks, stables and depots to rally points placed far, far away on the map. There were not any characteristic for that times army order of battle, organized squad movement and formation deployment on battlefields. These things in old game looks bad and needs improvements.

    It is possible to do it better, look at old HEW mod or C2 game. There players could somehow recreate army OOB, organized squad movement and formations deployment. Why they could not do these in C3 game?

    GSC already promised make new AI and make some other changes. Why they can not include correct army OOB, squad movement and formation deployment? These are characteristic things for times which they take as base for the game.

    I already suggested how it could looks in the game. Proposed make even simpler squads levels than it was in C1 game. This is not hard to implement these things into vanilla game, I suppose. These things make the game more accurate and interesting, especially for fans of historical warfare.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2016
  5. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    I agree, but this would also drastically change game play.

    And they have already informed us many times that this will not be in the base game. But would instead be added later through mods, and DLC's.
     
    [RO]Proof likes this.
  6. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Army OOB, squad movement and formation deployment on battlefields of course drastically change game play, but it will be much better game style. We will not see again crazy mixed mobs, blobbing in few places and disorderly fighting to the last unit. Old game play style in new graphic looks somehow obsolete today.

    HEW mod and other games already showed how battles from horse, sabre and gun powder era could looks fine.
    It would be good to see such battles aslo in C3 game, isn't it. Therefore old C1 game play needs some improvments.

    We still do know how they really will improve this game play, but mods and DLCs are not enough.
    They should improve vanilla game. I can wait for that even few month more.
     
  7. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    It would change balance and game play too much at this point. a few months would not be enough time, Likely more than another year.

    I would not expect it to happen. Everything they have told us, and shown us says that this will not happen?

    Daddio
     
  8. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I doubt that these improvements require work more than another year.
    Army OOB, squad movement and formation deployment are doable faster, I suppose.

    Even C1 game include squads and formations. I only smiplify squads sizes, make less levels there.
    Eliminate large formations, include basic levels for infantry, cavalry, artillery and trains squads.

    GSC could eventually make option for create squads in barracks, stables and depots from the start.
    Add some bonuses for different formations as it was in C2 game.

    So, simple Army OOB would be possible very fast. They could meet some problems with proper movements and deployments, becouse these require fine animations. C2 game had fine squad animations, they can make similar for C3 game. Road system is not neccessary, but marching columns at long distance in terrain would be fine.

    Then devs could make few tweaks in AI which should properly lead armies and these improvements are ready.

    New army organization do not require new balance. However old C1 nations balance and units stats were horrible spoiled. These htings require some changes, but it can not take a lot of time. All these improvements could change game play in better style.

    HEW mod and C2 game already showed how simple army OOB, movement and depoloyment could works fine in the game. I do not think that GSC devs had worse skills than mod makers. They can do these improvements in few month, I suppose.

    Then C3 game play will looks much better and interesting. This way they will gain more customers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
  9. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Formations

    I already suggested in other threads that squads and formations needs more changes in C3 game.
    Squads sizes for various types of units could looks in the game as fallows.

    Infantry = 12, 36, 72 and 120 units to represent company, half battalion, battalion and regiment squads
    Cavalry = 15 and 45 and 90 units to represent cavalry squadron, regiment and brigade squads
    Irregular or national cavalry = 10 and 40 units for Cossacks, Tatars, Mamelukes, camel squads

    If game will include other units they could create squads as fallows.

    Sapper company = 12 units
    Skirmish hunter company = 12 units
    Irregular bands= 30 units e.g. Bedouin bands or insurgent squads
    Militiamen = 30 units split on two 15 units companies in 2 ranks line

    Filed artillery battery = 3 cannons plus 1 howitzer, eventually with horse drawn 4 limbers
    Siege artillery section = 2 heavy 24pdr cannons or 2 howitzers, or 2 mortars with horse drawn limbers
    Ammunition caissons train company = 2 ammunition caissons each one drawn by 4 horses and 2 drivers
    Baggage, equipage, supply train company = 2 wagons each one drawn by 2 or 4 horses and 1 or 2 drivers
    Engineering train company = 2 wagons, each one drawn by 4 horses and 2 divers

    Ships squads
    Team = 2 the same type of ships
    Convoy = 4 or more transport or merchant vessels
    Squadron = 4 the same type of warships
    Fleet = 10 battleships or ships of the line

    This way C3 game could include better squads organization and formations. Few squad size levels could sufficiently recreate basic tactical formations. This help better move and maneuver squads, because larger formations are hardly useable in choke points on relatively small maps.

    Squads in the game could create basic tactical formations as fallows.

    Infantry
    Column predestined to swift move and cold steel attacks
    Line 3 ranks predestined to fire combats and slow movements
    Square for defense against cavalry and combats in encirclement

    Cavalry
    Column predestined to rapid move and cold steel breaking attacks in narrow place.
    Line 2 ranks for combats and movements in wide, but tin formation, can easier envelop enemy.
    Echelon for combats and movements in oblique, stepwise formation, less vulnerable on enemy fire.

    Sappers
    Line 2 ranks to combats and single line for sapper group at work

    Skirmish
    Line 2 ranks skirmish pairs in wide chain line used in combats

    Artillery
    Battery line, 3 cannons widely scattered, howitzer on flank or behind cannons, horses teams with limbers, if will available, could stand 50 paces behind artillery battery line.

    Train
    Column to move horse drawn ammunition caissons, engineer, baggage, equipment and supply wagons usually stay behind army squads in the rear or around camp or tabor fort.

    Squad movement and deployment

    Cavalry squads could move in column, but on battlefield create column, 2 rank line or echelon.
    Irregular cavalry, Cossacks, Mameluke, Tatar move in column, deploy in column or 2 rank line.

    Infantry squads move in column, on battlefield create column, 3 rank line formation for fire combats and slow movements, and square in defense against cavalry or combats in encirclement.

    Cannon squad move in column, deployed on battlefield in battery line formation.
    Howitzers stay on flanks or behind cannons, they can shot in higher trajectory.
    Mortar squad move in column, stay in the army rear, do not advance in front of own army.

    If game will include more units types they could move and deploy as fallows.

    Skirmisher squad, 12 units create 2 rank skirmish pairs wide chain line. They could fire simultaneously.
    Sapper squad, 12 units company create 2 ranks line formation and 1 rank sapper group at work.
    Bridging squad move in column, stay in 1 rank line, they could build wooden or pontoon bridges.
    Ammunition caisson squad move in column, stay in 1 rank line behind army squads.
    Supply wagon squad move in column, stay in 1 rank line, they could sometimes create tabor camp.

    Bedouin and other insurgents bands could create 30 units squads deployed in 3 ranks line.

    Nations eventually could create reserve militia units to guard their settlements.
    Militia squad 30 units. split on 2 x 15 units companies, create 2 rank line, centrally behind each company in 3rd rank could stand one militiaman to represent company commander.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
  10. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Army movement

    Army move in organized manner, divided on few characteristic groups as like Vanguard, Main force, Reserve and Rearguard.

    First move vanguard cavalry to screen army advance, make reconnaissance and search enemy.
    Next move skirmisher squad, formed in skirmisher pairs wide chain line to keep watch on key positions.
    Soon move sappers squad, they reconnoiter terrain, if necessary build or destroy camps, fortifications, field works, bridges or gangways. However strong fortifications require some engineering techniques.

    Next move infantry squads. They strengthen earlier sent troops and form battle line.
    Later move artillery squad. Artillery at long distance transport needed horse teams with limbers.
    Cannons on battlefields deploy in battery line on flank or in front of army or in gaps between squads.

    If other types of units will available they could move as fallows.
    Bridging train squad, when sappers will build camp or bridges.
    Ammunition caissons and supply wagon squads move the last.

    Vanguard group usually arrive the first on battlefield and form army’s right or left wing.

    Next move main force. Infantry, cavalry, artillery and other squads. Next move reserve squads.
    These forces can contain mortar squads which move later, together with ammunition caissons.

    Rearguard move the last. These squads move in mirror order to vanguard squads. First move horse drawn wagons, then artillery, infantry, sapper, skirmisher and the last cavalry squads.

    Rearguard on battlefield create army’s second wing or cover army retreat.

    Army deployment

    Army deployed squads on battlefields in characteristic order.
    For instance vanguard squads in 18 century could formed army’s left wing as fallows.

    Sappers squad, ammunition and supply wagons, if available, could stay in the rear of vanguard squads.
    Sometimes together with main force and reserve wagons they could create camp or tabor, mobile fort.

    horse drawn 2 supply wagons…………..SW….SW
    sapper squad in 2 ranks line………..…....******
    .....……………...……………………….………..******
    horse drawn 2 ammunition caissons….AW...AW

    General and his Adjutant stay behind vanguard battle line
    ................................................................G..A

    Artillery deployed on flank, eventually in front of infantry or gap between infantry squads.

    Artillery on flank………………Infantry squads in the centre…………….…...................cavalry squad on flank
    ….Howitzer...............musketeer squad……................light infantry squad
    behind 3 cannons….…….O FB D…………………….......……….O FB D ………officer, flag bearer, drummer
    …….H.……….….************************……....************************……….*********************
    …………………….************************……....************************.. gap..*********************
    A...A...A .gap....************************..gap..************************.…………..…….*.FB.*…….c. flag bearer
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..……….....….*………… c. officer

    Skirmisher squad initially deployed in front of vanguard, later can withdraw through gaps in the rear
    ..………….. skirmisher pairs widely scattered in 2 ranks chain line with bigger gaps

    ………………….……………….* *...............* *............... * *
    …………….….………………............* *............... * *................* *

    Rearguard squads could formed in similar, mirror order on army second wing.

    Main force hold central position.
    Musketeers and Pikeneers form checkered battle line, light infantry on left flank and grenadier squad on right flank.
    Dragoons, heavy and light cavalry deploy on both flanks or behind infantry in second line.

    Cannons in front of main battle line, eventually in gaps between infantry squads. Howitzers deploy behind cannons.
    Sappers could build field works or stay behind artillery guns and horse drawn wagons.

    Reserve stay behind main force deployed in similar order or centrally massed in columns, ready to strengthen main battle line or execute decisive attack or cover retreat.

    Such order of battle, movement and deployment was characteristic for European armies in 18 century.


    Turkey usually strengthen their army with vassals irregular cavalry and provincial infantry. Large armies often formed deeper main battle line. Sometimes build field camp in entrenchment.

    Insurgent powers as like Algeria, Hungary and Ukraine created cheap units which used different tactical deployment dependent on situations and available units.

    Algeria often avoided pitched battles with big armies. They often used small groups to raid, harass and weaken enemy troops or buildings. Algerian troops can strongly defend their costal castles and towns.

    Hungarian preferred maneuverable light cavalry and infantry which could maneuver faster, but get into troubles standing against strong, professional army.

    Ukraine Cossacks often fought close to wagons formed in tabor which was something like mobile fort.

    Such army organization, movement, deployment players and AI could use in C3 game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  11. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Tactical formations

    Squads in the game could create improved tactical formations.
    Basic formations could looks as fallows.

    Infantry squad 72 units in column formation

    .…..O FB D........officer, flag bearer, drummer in the rear
    * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * *

    Infantry squad in 3 ranks line formation

    ...........................O FB D............................officer, flag bearer and drummer centrally in the rear
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *…..3rd rank, 24 soldiers
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *…..2nd rank
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *…..1st rank

    Infantry squad in square formation


    * * * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * * * *
    * *.……………….* *
    * *………………. * *
    * *…………….….* *
    * *…O. FB. D...* *
    * * ………….......* *
    * * ………….......* *
    * * ………….......* *
    * * * * * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * * * * *

    Cavalry squad 45 units in column formation

    * * * * * * * 7 units in 6th rank, bigger gaps between horses, they need more free place
    * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * * 7 units in 1st rank, bigger gaps between horses, they need more free place
    .…...* FB *…....flag bearer and 2 units could represent cavalry officers
    ……..…*…….....1 unit in front of squad could represent cavalry commander

    Cavalry squad in 2 ranks line formation, visible gaps between 3 cavalry squadrons
    Cavalry line formation could be similarly wide as infantry 3 ranks line formation

    * * * * * * *.... * * * * * * *.... * * * * * * *…2nd rank, gaps between 3 squadrons and between ranks
    * * * * * * *.... * * * * * * *.... * * * * * * *..1st rank, gaps between 3 squadrons
    ……………….…..* FB * …………………........flag bearer and 2 units could represent cavalry officers
    ……………….………*…………………….........1 unit in front of squad could represent cavalry commander

    Cavalry squad in echelon formation, right oblique

    * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * *
    …………..…..* * * * * * *
    ..………….….* * * * * * *
    ……………………* FB *
    ………………………*………….* * * * * * *
    ..………………………..………..* * * * * * *


    Cavalry squad in echelon formation, left oblique

    ……………….………………..* * * * * * *
    ………………………...……...* * * * * * *
    ..…………….* * * * * * *
    ………..…….* * * * * * *
    ………………….* FB *
    ……………………..*
    * * * * * * *
    * * * * * * *

    If game will include other units they could create such squads and formations.

    Sapper squad 12 units in 2 ranks line formation

    * * * * * *
    * * * * * *

    Skirmisher squad 12 units in wide chain line formation

    * *................* *.............. * *........... 3 widely scattered skirmisher pairs in 2nd rank with bigger gaps

    .........* *............... * *.................* *.3 widely scattered skirmisher pairs in 1st rank with bigger gaps

    Supply wagons squad
    SW…….SW…….. horse drawn 2 supply wagons, if will available could build camp or stay in the army rear

    Engineering wagons squad
    EW………EW…….horse drawn 2 engineering tools and pontoon wagons, if will available could build bridges

    Ammunition caissons squad
    AW….…AW………horse drawn 2 ammunition caissons, if will available stay 100 paces behind artillery

    Artillery battery formation

    HL….HL.…HL...HL….4 horse teams with limbers, if will available stay 50 paces behind artillery

    …………..H……………….1 howitzer on flank or behind 3 cannons
    A…………A………..A…..3 widely deployed cannons


    Irregular squad, 30 units split in 3 ranks line formation

    * * * * * * * * * *…10 units in 2nd rank
    * * * * * * * * * *…10 units in 2nd rank
    * * * * * * * * * *…10 units in 1st rank

    Militia squad, 30 units split on two 15 units companies in 2 ranks line formation

    …….*…………………………*………..2 units in 3 rd rank represent militia 2 officers
    * * * * * * * ………. * * * * * * *…14 units in 2nd rank
    * * * * * * * ………. * * * * * * *…14 units in 1st rank
     
  12. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    nothing personal but I am pretty sure that all what you said is kind of useless because it will be a C1 remake with the same insane fast attack speed.

    -no gun dmg bonus meaning I dont care, units fire from the distance and shield only matters for melee.
    -even in gun vs gun fights the bonus is way to small. (but mods can change that).

    So lets take for example formations are absolute mandatory (+200 range, +10 dmg, +13 shield).

    I would only use line formation so that most units can fire. Behind that line I would add another line formation just in case something comes closer. units from behind can shot to enemies even if your own units are in the way. There is no friendly fire meaning that most formation types are pretty much the same. You can just select a few non formations shooter to snipe down the enemy officier, even if he stays behind his troops he will die.

    Unless there is a American Conquest mod or imperia mod (which most likely will appear some day) formations (not the bonus just the layout) and all the stuff would be totally useless in my opinion.

    C1 is not very tactical in that sense. AQ or similar games would be way better.
     
  13. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    You wrote interesting remarks, but I do not think that this thread is kind of useless.

    Old C1 game even with insane fast attack speed allow play with formations. However this was not effective game play.
    That was becouse disordered units had too big dmg, kill ratio, were faster and better maneuverable. Decrease unit stats, slow individual unit movement, improve squad sizes, formation deployment is not hard thing.

    This way I try to show that C3 game could get better game play including better army order of battle, movement and deployment accordingly to well known tactical order at that period.

    I would like to see better game play with better organized armies and without insanely mixed mobs.
    Formations could be mandatory, but this is not necessary. Main thing is proper army OOB and tactical order.
    Formations big bonuses are not necessary, eventually +10 dmg and + 12 shield would be enough. However basic units stats needs more testing and these I suggested in other thread.

    Main goal in this threasd I see in easy improvements for army OOB, movement, deployment and tactical formations.
    As I said basic squad sizes and shape of formation determined their usability. For instance.

    I simplify squads to only few basic sizes characteristic for certain types of armed forces. Bigger squads are quite useless.
    Tactical formations get characteristic shapes which are predestined for specific actions.

    Column is better for swift movements, rapid maneuvres, especially in terrain and choke points.
    Line allow units fire more effectively, but is worse in maneuvers and vulnerable on flank attack.
    Square is more resistant on cavalry attacks and defensive combat in envelopment.

    Lose order or soldiers without formation are less vurnelable on fire, but worse in melee where men numers, their skills and packed formation decide who could win.

    Therfore C3 game could get some improvements in basic squad sizes, formations shapes, movements and units stats.
    These improve tactical order and deployment on battlefields. Then insane mixed mobs lose their advantage in the game.

    These could be remedies for insane combats executed by disordered, mixed mobs known from C1 game.

    This way C3 game will be more accurate, interesting and better.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
  14. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    Makes sense but I still believe that several layouts would only make sense with a slow attack speed (10 times slower than C1).
    You could form a square to be a small target, after the enemy attacked you changed to line and fire. You could do that if they need really long to reload but if they attack very fast you are dead.

    Also 2 or more types of units are very hard to use. in Ac you could fire one volley with your musketeers, then retreat and attack with pike.

    You made some other suggestions which I really prefer like bonus to movement speed. That would be one very good bonus because I hate micromanagment warfare. It is annoying if I have spend time just for one or two units CONSTANTLY. I would it also enjoy if ONLY units in formations can capture stuff, no cavalry no single units.
    Several boni depending on type are also a good idea.
    square: takes the most space, very effective against a large amount of shattered units. good against many weak units, +2-5 damage against units that are not in formation.
    coloumn: best for melee attack, additional melee damage, and +1 bonus shield.
    rank: best for shooters, +100 bonus range and +1 damage.

    There are 3 ways stopping me from using formations
    1) if they are bugged, we know that they were terrible. Let us hope that they work now.
    2) too high damage. There is no random damage, meaning formation offers zero bonus for 100 life shooter against attackers with 53-99 damage. -50% damage suffered when in formation would always work. Especially bonus range would be amazing. I always get the first strike.
    3) too much micromanagment. At the beginning of the game with only 2 barracks I have time for that but later on soo much units I rarely have time.
     
  15. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    AC and C2 games used formations and these games were not 10 times slower than C1.
    AC was in some cases even faster e.g. units creation, Indians or Cossacks attacks etc.

    I propose lower speed mevement for individual units, while formations could get the same speed as they got in C1.
    This way individual, disordered units in C3 will lose their advantage and usability while formations will get advantage.

    Few bonuses for tactical formations are possible, but it is not necessary. When individual units will slower and weaker
    then formation will stronger and more usable. Size and shape of formation will decide for what actions tactical formation is predestined.

    Nevertheless you are right when you somehow suggest

    1. Debuge or improve formations.
    2. Decrease high dmg for individual units.
    3. Minimalise micromanagement.

    However I dont understand your propositions according formations bigger bonuses, especially bonus range.

    I think that better is inlcude different dmg zones or accuracy, similar to green, yellow, red zones known from C2.
    Fire ranges could be standard, similar for all musket armed units, but accuracy or dmg could be different for better trained units in close, middle and long range. Accuracy and dmg at long range should be very low.

    This way individual units will lose next advantage, becouse in middle and close range they could be shattered by disciplined formations.
     
  16. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    I only talked about reload times of guns
    AQ had so many insane stupid things, maya pike moved 2 times faster than western pike and their warrior with staff even 3 times faster and could even outrun your 17c cavalry. I tried to beat it but impossible, I asked for help in the offtopic forum here. I stay to my opinion, maya is UNBEATABLE.

    there is only one -35% attack speed upgrade and it is not very cheap either. So at the beginning it was, musketeers fire, retreat and pike attack. Of course 18c shooter especially fully upgraded could fire quite fast but in AQ it was very hard if not impossible to kill only with muskets at the beginning of the game.

    For me attack range is very important because it will reduce the amount of micromanagment.
    FOr example I have shooter with 800 range, my enemy uses shooter with 850 range (turkey for example).
    He will always get the first strike. If I order my troups stand still it is a death sentence because he will snipe all enemies and never get attacked.
    If no special command is given they just move to the enemy. After a few attack they could move too far away. Away from protecting stuff and then beeing attacked from riders.
    Even with the same range they move or die with stand still command. I tested that no dmg upgrades and much healer. Although it took a very long time they died due to 4% headshot chance.

    A bonus range would always cause the first strike (except bad 17c shooter against 18c). ONE SINGLE shooter can not cause harm. It would be impossible because he would die before he can fire. My formation would stand still without any losses. For me formations should be mandatory, therefore -100 attack range for all shooter and +150 attack range if in formation.

    Of course after a huge attack I have to do stuff but one single soldiers causes ZERO work for me.

    For me there are to many units. I dont want to fight against thousands of units that are just send to the enemy without any tactic. I would prefer smaller battle with fewer units. But that should not be so hard with modding. Just add some gold maintanance for every unit and finde.
     
  17. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I see more sense in the same fire ranges and different dmg or accuracy zones, similar to C2 game.
    Fire arms in that game worked fine, however muskets could get automatic fire system to eliminate too much micromanagment.

    I think that worse individual unit stats, especially speed and maneuverability would be solution too.
    Then formations will get advantage and proper formations get more sense in C 3 game.
     
  18. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    problem is that even a very small damage difference can cause much difference.
    12 starting damage will result in a final dmg output of 22
    13 in 24 and 14 will result in 26 and 15 will result in 28 11 in 20

    So even a very small damage change will result in huge differences. Another advantage of the AQ system, the damage refers to the maximum damage, 300 +/- 1 is not such a big difference. Especially if you fight against armoured units one damage more or less makes a huge difference. It is impossible to beat 17c armoured pikeman with 17c shooter because you will run out of resources. Excet you have good RNG luck with the 4% instant kill chance

    accuracy for all shooters in C1 was 100% but some changes may be a good idea. One of the mayor problems is game at the start and at the end. Damage output increases so insane much. In a small mod I let all shooter start with the +20% dmg upgrade and that upgrade was replaced with +2 gun protection for all shooters. +3 Shield for 12 or even 9 damage, great maybe even to powerful. But for 22 or 24 damage not so powerful anymore.

    I just hope that dragoons get less range because they were quite good for hit and run. That should work for pikeman but not for shooter.
     
  19. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    As I said, units stats could follow C2 game case. There were well resolved musket fire ranges, dmg and accuracy matters.
    Devs could easily adpot these solutions into C3 game I suppose.

    Then Dragoons will not snipe musketeers, becouse fire at long range would be futile. When dragoons will go to closer range and open fire at middle or close range they will lose their advantage, fire ranges would be the same, but dragoons formation create 45 units while musketeer 72 units.

    This way musketeers regain proper role as MAIN musket shooting units. Dragoons role was support other units, especially heavy cavalry. They advantage over infantry was faster movement at long distance, dragoons could capture and hold key positions, bridges, choke points, hills, flanks etc. Such supportive roles dragoons should get in C3 game.

    Musketeers vs Pikes case is a matter of speed. I postulated longer reload ratio, but I think that C2 ratios are fine.
    Marching in terrain could be slower, then musketeers could fire even two times. One volley at middle range and eventually next one at close range. This way pikes will suffer more casualties and will lose their advantage in melee against 18th c. musketeers. Nevertheless pikes could be still dangerous for 17th c. musketeers how it was at that period.

    Barracks should create musketeers faster. Then musketeers will more useable and players will not spam only pikes.
    Pikes were supportive units, they defended musketeers against enemy pikes or cavalry close attacks. However in C1 game pikes insanely played primarily roles. Devs should change this.
     
  20. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    main problem with 17c musket was not their low creation speed but but their insane high consumption of resources when firering.
    17c pike: 25 food, 20 iron, 95 life, 5 gunprotection +3 if in formartion and two times +2 shield upgrades

    standard 17c musket had 9 damage (totally useless), after private upgrades it was 13 BUT, private upgrades costed much time and resources, stuff you dont have at the beginning of the game.

    So lets assume 13 dmg musket against pike with 8 protection against bullets = 5 damage per shot = 19 hits in total = 114 resources wasted, yeah there is a 4% headshot chance BUT two shooter can also fire at the same target twice.

    I tested that, 100 creation speed for muskets and +50% attack speed. My resources went down.
    After all upgrades it is 24 damage against 12 = 12 damage. = 8 hits on average = 48 resources on average
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice