C-3 Army order of battle, movement and deployment

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nowy, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. ono1

    ono1 Active Member

    When with friend playing C1 for big armies we started on million resources and rich 2 and half hours only creating them with traded town halls for max population..... we had like 5 hours of play we tried lot of things. such epic battles etc
     
  2. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    There are lot od differences between Starcraft and Cossacks that's why I said that arpe can not compare these games.

    Cossacks allow create big armies and that is awsome. However army should mean well organized squads, characteristic order of barttle, movement, deployment and well organized warfare. These features were not well recreated in C1 game. :(

    Therefore I suggested make more changes in these matters in C 3 game.
    This is obvious to me, that is doable, becouse many games include such features, even HEW mod or C2 games.

    It is not hard implement simpler squad orgazniation, only few standard squad sizes and less large squads.
    Decrease individual units abilities to fight against well organized formations. Eliminate individual units upgrades.
    Improve units stats, better chose units, balance nations and improve economy. Possible are experience, fatigue and moral systems. However these systems are not necessary, these elements are main factors of good warfare.

    I see possibilities for good army OOB, movement and deployment in C3 game.
    Let's hope GSC manage to implement more changes which make the game more accurate, interesting and better.
     
  3. ono1

    ono1 Active Member

    ……………I made good point of not caring anymore
     
  4. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    So, please do not spam here with such hollow remarks anymore.
    You can write here about army OOB, movement and deployment in C3 game. :cool:
     
  5. Umbral

    Umbral Member

    Nowy is definatelly too hardcore in a bad way and doesn't want to provide arcade style, easy to implement suggestions. Instead i see a continuous rant about complex things that would take another year to implement.

    Nowy why don't you make your own games ?
    Ohh i forgot you don't have the skills, your only skills are to make the C3 developers crazy by writing about things they won't be able to deliver on time. You bssically have no talent, your only talent is playing video games.

    All these suggestions are so boring that it would make people stop buying and playing the game.

    Remember arcade game not real life game !
     
  6. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    It is not hardcore. Cossacks style games already had many of these propositions, however some things needs more tweaks.

    I suggest implement even simpler squad organization, these allow play even arcade game play.
    My proposition do not require another year to implement. I managed make myself many changes in C2 mod which improved army OOB, movement, deployment, formations, squads sizes, units stats etc.
    These changes took me only FEW DAYS, including lot of testing. :)
    I can make some things in modding, but new RTS C3 game require developers to make more changes. :)

    They know better this game, therefore they can work faster, I suppose. I could help them showing what they could change and why. They do not need to make bigger research in these matters. This way they get good feedback.
    Improving game flaws usually make game better. This can help sale C3 game better. :)

    I do not think that my suggestions are boring at last my threads had lot of views and replies.
    These mean people are interested in my writings in other way they would not view my threads.

    So, it looks that I got more talents than you thought. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
    lars gottfridsson likes this.
  7. ono1

    ono1 Active Member

    But THINGS you mark as FLAW is that what makes me play that game!
     
    [KGR]-^K[o]K^- likes this.
  8. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    You wrote nonsense.
    Bear in mind that flaws as like squads orgazniation can not make you play the game, you probably play without squads.
    Even you play with squads, you could easily notice that they had many flaws. FLAWS are FLAWS, they can not make the game fun. Devs already announced, they will make some fixes there.

    You can not complain that I want to play with good formations. I can call that C1 had flaws in formations, these needs easy improvements. What is more HEW, C2 and other games alreeady improved many things in formations.
    Why C3 game can not include proper army OOB, movement and deployment?

    Becouse of what? Becouse you want to see C 3 game in old, obsolete C1 style with well known FLAWS?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
    powerpinch likes this.
  9. powerpinch

    powerpinch Member

    This reply is unnecessarily rude and aggressive, please try to keep the discussion civil.

    The devs can leave or take suggestions as they want, and though I haven't read them all I'm sure there are some of value.
    I personally disagree with the notion that C3 should be a singleplayer focused game because the gaming community has changed a LOT since the early 2000's when C1 came out. Personally I never played C1 online because I was too young and I didn't really use the internet for games much until I got a bit older.

    But attacking someone personally and saying because they can't program they can't give suggestions is ignorant and careless. Speaking as a programmer, non-programmers are usually the most important point of feedback and suggestions since they provide a different perspective from a developer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
    Nowy likes this.
  10. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    This thread is about OOB, movement and deployment.

    If you have something to add, or suggest please respond. If not.... do not post here at all.

    It is clear that there are two camps here. One wants t he old arcade style play of C1, others prefer the more historically accurate style of C2.

    Both will be accommodated, ether in base game release, or later in mods, and or dlc's.

    Comments directed at others, rather than on topic will be deleted, and discipline issued to repeat offenders.

    Daddio
     
    Nowy likes this.
  11. arpe

    arpe Active Member

    Ok Daddio can you move this topic to section modding ? These suggestions too much change gameplay.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2016
  12. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    One last thing I want to add.
    I thing is is really unlikely that the developers change a mayor part of the game shortly before the game start.
    But I am pretty sure someone will add C2 or AQ gameplay as mod or DLC.

    However:
    1000+ units work with the arcade gamestyle of C1. You can send them against each other and it makes even fun. It is simple creating and spamming against the enemy. send pikes first as human shield and then the musketeers.

    If you change it to the C2 or AQ gameplay it wont work. With slower attack speed and inaccurate weapons the damage output is MUCH MUCH lower. If you send 2 musketeer formations in imperia or AQ against each other it will take quite long (especially without upgrades). Meaning while I fight I still have the next formation waiting but it can not attack due to friendly fire. I either have to attack from the side (which takes way too much micromanagment) or wait until the first formation is dead. It is especially bad in AQ. I have much units but they can not attack because there is already a line fighting. Like said I do enjoy this gamestyle But it is NOT WORKING with the same creating speed of units. It does not make fun. You won the battle can move one feet closer to the enemy city and then attack the next formation again.

    In reality there were battles with large number of units. For example battle of waterloo with 190.000 units, BUT the fight took several hours and it was fought at different locations.

    I will dislike the gamestyle with these large number of units. On a map 1000+ units in formation WITHOUT resupply of new units I could enjoy it but not with a wave of new units every second.

    That was also the problem with imperia, quite good at the beginning of the game due to low number of units but later on, just too much units. Too much micromanagment. Go there, attack fram that direction, you attack from another direction.
    I will 100% not enjoy this gamestyle in the later stages of the games with too much units.


    Therefore it is not enough to simple change the gamestyle. You also have to reduce the number of units. And some want to play with 1000+ of units which does only work with arcade style gameplay not with AQ/C2 gameplay.
     
  13. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    I agree, these suggestions have nearly no chance at all of making it into the first rendition of C3, The developers have stated over and over that this style will not be part of the game.

    But this is the "suggestions" section, and it is a legitimate suggestion.
     
  14. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    This is part of the challenge for formation style of game play.

    At the Hawks, we would play teams, dividing up the troops, and assigning each team member a objective. this way very large battles could be fought. Made for epic battles.

    In C2 the main problem was that autofire was not an option. you could be jumped, while in a battle with no time to respond.

    But these are things that can be overcome with a little creativeness, and attention. Hopefully the moding tools will be robust enough to make this possible.
     
  15. powerpinch

    powerpinch Member

    The base game anyways, it's always possible they could add expansions or create mods themselves for the game to exemplify the robustness of their game's mod support.
     
    Nowy likes this.
  16. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Yes, this is legitimate section.

    I think that army OOB, movement and deployment have a chance in C 3.
    Devs already announced some fixes and improvements in formations. This is good step in right direction.
    These fixes can help players create charcteristic army OOB, movement and deployment in the game. :)

    This is somehow possible even in old C1 game, however it needs more patience and some tricks, becouse some units can not create formations at all. Nevertheless I use formations in this game, even they were not adequately recreated.

    New formations sizes, shapes and characteristic usability are easily implementable in C3 game. I experimented such fixes in C2 mod and made many changes in the game. These took me only few days together with lot of testing.
    So, it is not hard to implement in C3 game.

    Then players, which likes formations, will create proper formations. These players which prefer old, obsolete C1 game play style could play without formations. They simply will not create formations, will not bother about army OOB, movement and deployment. Everybody could be happy.

    EDIT

    I have been made some changes in my posts on first page.
    Added General Commanders, Adjutants, baggage, equipage, supply train wagons and included their possible positions in characteristic army OOB, movement and deployment. These add some changes in tactical deployment too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  17. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Devs already informed that C3 game include 400 units formations. This do not sound good.

    Too big formations make some troubles. They are clumsy, slowly, occupy too big area, hardly manouvre, badly represent combats and looks bad as one big block, much bigger than any building or other landscape faetures.

    So, bigger than 120 units squads looks and works bad.

    I could accept more units in bigger formation, when this will not one big block. For instance.
    Formation 400 units could be visually split on 4 smaller squads, each one 100 units, all under one General command.
    Then 400 units could represent brigade level. They could operate together and create the same formation shapes, mean 4 columns, 4 lines, 4 squares placed side by side with ordinary gaps between 4 squads. This is doable in the game.

    I have been made similar mod for C2 game, split milita 30 units on two smaller companies, each 15 units.
    They operated together, but visually it looks like two squads. Experimented with 120 units squads too.
    These visually split formations worked quite well.

    I think skilled devlopers could add such feature into vanila C3 game.

    Infantry formation in the game should somehow represent well scalled historical, basic tactical formations e.g.
    company= 12 units, half battalion = 3 companies = 36 units, battalion = 6 companies = 72 units, and brigade = 4 battalions = 288 units.

    This simpler squads system make more sense than strangely scalled and shaped formations for one block formation with 15/36/72/120/196/400 units.

    Company, half battalion and battalion could works as one block, but bigger brigade level should include 4 battalions squads under one General command. These visually split infantry brigades will works and looks better in well organized army.

    The same case could be implemented for cavalry.
    Basic cavalry squads = squadron =15 units and regiment = 45 units.
    Cavalry Brigade = 2 cavalry regiments = 2 squads, each one 45 units.

    Irregular cavalry as like Cossacks, Tatars, Mamelukes, National Cavalry could form smaller squads with 10, 40 and 80 units.

    This way regular cavalry would be little bit stronger in one to one squad combats, but irregular cavaly could faster create more squads and take advantage with more squads, that was in history.

    This would be fine include in C3 game better organized squads for artillery and horse drawn trains.

    Artillery squads could create
    Artillery section = 2 the same type artillery guns with horse drawn limbers, if these will available
    Artillery battery = 3 cannons, eventually plus 1 howitzer and 4 horse drawn limbers, if these will be available

    Train = horse drawn wagons
    Ammunition caissons train squad = 2 ammunition caissons
    Engineering train squad = 2 engineering wagon carried tools, equipment and pontoons
    Suplly wagon train squad = 2 supply wagons

    This new squad system could better represent proper army order of battle in the game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  18. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I still wonder why developers can not include in C3 game well organized army order of battle, movement and deployment characteristic for presented in the game periods?

    This is more interesting for common players, take command over well organized big army, than insanely push disorganized mobs in great blobs sentenced to chaotic massacre.

    My propositions mentioned in this thread could help to improve army organisation, movement, manouvres and lead well organized combats.

    General idea is create well scaled squads, organise army in typical order of battle, movement and deployment.
    These require include some changes in the game. Simplify squad sizes, improve formation shapes, add automatically officer and drumers to squads.

    This would be fine add some new units as like Generals, Adjutants, sappers and skirmishers.
    Improve units stats and nation balance could be another things worthy to implement into C3 game.

    All these things allow

    1. Create better squads and formations.
    2. Create better army order of battle, movement and deployment.
    3. Prevent insane units marching ants strings or mobs send accross the map to disorganized combats.

    I find these features could greatly improve C3 game play.
    Many customers probably still are waiting for these things.
     
    Loner likes this.
  19. arpe

    arpe Active Member

    Nowy you never surrender :p
     
  20. Takeo

    Takeo Member

    +1

    +1
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice