Developers please read this, I speak on behalf of the community.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Poppadomus, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. Poppadomus

    Poppadomus Member

    When we first seen the trailer for cossacks 3 the RTS community was very happy and could not wait to purchase the game as the historical real time strategy genre has been quite stagnant for the past decade, the last great game was probably company of heroes which quite accuratley replicated a world war 2 battle field.

    Having purchased previous games from the Cossacks franchise, we believed that GSC Game World would produce a good product, but in reality we are given a broken mess.

    What we want to know as a community is what are you going to do to fix the current problems with the game and if you are even going to bother fixing them at all.

    Here are some of the most important fixes that we as a community need right now:

    Online Play
    The multiplayer component of the game is terribly broken, players lose syncronization as a result units and buildings become uncontrollable, unresponsive, and fail to follow basic orders such as movement, firing at enemy troops, gather resources and upgrading technologies. There is also a memory bug which can occur which which basically freezes the game and you are given a memory error window.

    There are also some problems regarding connections, there is no way to reconnect to a game and this is very frustrating because if you lose only a few packets you are disconnected from the game. Not only is there no way to reconnect to a game but there is also no way to save the progress of an online battle and some battles can become very tiresome and drag on for several hours.

    There are also several bugs with game lobby's too, when players join a game sometimes it will show an incorrect amount of 'Wins' and to fix this you have to switch to the 'Shell' to correct this and it is very annoying having to do this over and over. Another bug with lobbys is sometimes when you join a game you will show in thee nation list for around 30 seconds and then recieve a message that the game is full.

    AI
    AI is extremely predictable, once you have thought against them a few times it is very easy to 1v7 Impossible AI as they use predictable unit composistion, army size and attacks feel as though they are in sequences rather than for example the AI randomly attacking you with a cavalry raid of 100 or so fast cavalry.

    Unit/Nation Variance
    There isn't much variance in units, this is more noticeable with the european nations both visually and strategically, each european nation has the same generic units, 17thCent Pikemen, 18thCent Pikemen, 17thCent Musketeers, 18thCent Musketeers, MercGrenadiers, 18thCent Grenadiers, 17th CentDragoons, 18th Cent Dragoons, Hussars, Reiters, Archers, Sich Cossacks, MercDragoons, Skirmishers and Priests.

    Other than a few re skins and minor stat tweaks most units have stats and play styles which makes gameplay quite stale, England as a nation one of the most powerful powers in the world is an absolute joke.

    Capture
    Capture is also broken in online play, if an enemy captures a single villager they build double the amount of barracks and stables that you can which can make them extremely over powered, skill can only get you so far it will not allow you to take on an army twice your size.

    Blobbing
    When attacking with an army they will not maintain a formation and units will try to occupy the same position on the map which results in hundreads of units in a tiny area, which really messes up the game because musketeers will all shoot the closest unit first and 100's of musket shots will be wasted, blobbing just ruins the game in general because 1000's of units can occupy a single hill which is ridiculous.

    There is many more things wrong with the game but I would be here all day writing about them, I believe that these are the most profound problems currently, If these issues are addressed I see no reason why cossacks could not be as successfull as other games and even have a better eSports community for me there is little motivation to compete in tournaments etc. because the game is so broken that you can lose to broken game mechanic.

    It would be nice to hear back from you, the developers about your intentions with this game, we are fedup of waiting in limbo for things to improve, just be more transparant with us, we are a loyal community atleast have the respect to communicate with us maybe just something simple like a roadmap of things you are working on.
     
    Zakxaev68 and Loner like this.
  2. Zakxaev68

    Zakxaev68 Active Member

    With great respect, anything you lay out here has been discussed by each and every one of us to no avail, either in public or private. Agreed on most but one thing, rather patching the patch, the game needs complete retouch, in both interface and mechanics; I don't foresee that happen in near to any future possible. Last time we heard by an official developer, no more content will come after that last DLC bit, least to say it sounds like some one tried to tell us that nicely than piss of everyone. In one way or another, its done, I think the ''road map'' gave a bittersweet feeling about whats to come, too much question marks make the now worse situation look too vague.
     
  3. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    Meh, i think the game is fine and the devs should focus solely on modding support especially since there isnt going to be another content update
     
  4. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    I agree with Poppadomus. The basic or vanilla game (engine and scripts) is NOT fine. However, it is certainly good enough that it deserves to be properly finished by the developers. I also agree that Poppadomus's list is in pretty good priority order. People paid good money for this game and many have been loyal to and patient with the C3 brand. The fact is that one good in-house programmer could chip away and fix these issues literally in days or a few weeks at most. Is that too much to ask? Let's look at Poppadomus's list.

    1. Connection problems. Yes, fix all the problems that P. lists. Some of these got worse (regressed) after a recent patch. What can be broken can also be fixed again. What can be fixed can then be enhanced. These issues can be fixed to previous standard and then fixed further. This stuff is not hard for professional programmers. Please do it.

    2. Other multiplayer lobby bugs. These too would have fairly easy fixes. Since the developers place an emphasis on multiplayer competition why would they not fix these issues? It is quite puzzling.

    3. The AI. This is one item I would place further down the priority list. The logical order of task dependency requires that game performance, bugs and balance be fixed first. This is because the detail of AI logic depends on general performance, bug-free performance and actual game balance. An AI project is also a challenging project if it is to be done properly. Certainly, AI needs re-doing because some people love to play the AI. But fix the other parts first and then the AI because the AI project components have logical dependencies on the other items.

    4. Unit/Nation Variance - Yes, more of this is needed. Again, it is not hard for in-house developers to do.

    5. Capture - Yes, we need options on results of capture. Perhaps modders could step up here. But I notice that modders do things (like Wralth fixing up-front wall costs) and the developers still don't put these easy fixes into Vanilla. I don't understand that.

    6. Blobbing. Yes blobbing and formation stacking should be corrected. They negatively affect play in a number of ways, especially tactically and strategically. My own tests also show that stacked musket formations (say 3x400 on each side) can and do cause frame rate lag. The engine really struggles to process either the shooting and/or all the pixels of compressed units. A musket weapon which will not fire through friendlies alleviates this to some extent. If you stack 3x400 muskets they will lose against proper line formations under conditions of no firing through friendlies. Thus players would drop the idea of stacking musket formations at least. This is how Cavalli Realism mod works and very soon (this coming weekend) it will be how OCMOD3 works.

    I back the call for a direct reply from the developers on these issues.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
    Loner likes this.
  5. Poppadomus

    Poppadomus Member

    Just to clarify you and I are talking about the same game here? As I write this my last 3 games of multiplayer have ended because of bugs/connection drop and desync?
     
  6. БоевойБосяк

    БоевойБосяк Active Member

    A look from the side: the English-speaking community was too late to sound the alarm. Everything went wrong from the very beginning. Critics of developers should have been a half-year, a year ago. But politeness did not allow. And now it's too late. The developers have not visited this forum for 9 months already. And everything indicates that this is the end.
     
  7. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    Yeah well that sucks to hear and i really wish you good luck but i have none of those issues in longer games.
     
  8. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    I like to play against the computer (especially since my internet doenst work right now most of the time). That is one of the main reasons the game died for me. C1 had better Ai then C3. Its so easy to win in C3 especially now since 17c musketeers have been buffed and the AI still trains pike. For example: start a game with researched 18c and start with million resources. The Ai builds up to 6 18c barracks even without one single 17c barracks, its so stupid, they die before they create even one unit. And the AI is so devensive. they rarely attack most the time they retreat. C1 was so much better and harder.

    Thats also one of the reason I stopped modding because I wanted to test my mod against the AI. But how if the AI is so good damm stupid and lose even if they have 300% gathering speed. I even gave their units insane production speed boni but even then they waited until their base was totally full and then attacked. I tried to make the AI more aggressive but I couldnt find a way to do so.

    Even now I play from time to time imperia C1 mod, that is challenging and I have problems winning against one very hard opponent while I can beat 5+ in C3.

    The AI is however somewhat decent on campaign mission (not random maps, scripted missions). They have one major disadvantage, you cant disable cannons and I am not a fan of cannons, in fact I really hate them.



    What also killed Cossacks 3 for me

    -Mac: I dont have MAC but promising mac and skipping it for (a year or so by now ???) is simple a joke. I mean look at their facebook page and count the comments on their last 20 or so posts. Per post there are most the time 6-10 comments but almost all of them are asking for mac. If you would ignore mac related posts on their page I would also say that the cossacks 3 facebook page is totally dead.

    -bugs at release. there were a lot of bugs. While I can understand some bugs (we are all humans) like +11 rather then +1 damage for lets say some venice pike upgrade I have no respect for units with no name or units that doent attack. With the dlc and new nations there were quite some units that either did not attack (and were therefore useless) or had no name. How has nobody found that and say lets skip release for one day. Same thing with Portugal port. They promised unique building (well a building that has an attack unlike other ports is indeed something unique). But at release it wasnt available, it wasnt even in the scripts, so they never intended to create it at release. They just released it somewhat later. Why not simple tell the truth.

    -same gameplay:
    Yeah thats also a problem. New dlc didnt really added new gameplay. Compare that to lets say Starcraft Broodwar. A lot of new units with different abilities and tactics. Even in game like Age of empires 2 the unique units from the castle are more different, (bonusdmg against ..., and so on). With mods I was able to make some units more different like, bonusdmg at close range or bonus attack speed once that unit killed 3 units.

    Cossacks 3 now basically plays the same as at release. Sure some major changes were performed like better 17c muskets or so but that was it. There wasnt any 16c or 19c dlc, or a dlc with higher reload time/friendly fire and so on. Or a new feature like (musketeers with bayonet can perform a bayonet charge, where they move faster for a short time but cant fire).

    -boring replays:
    I love watching professional gaming. I still watch 1vs1. replays of starcraft or other RTS with comments. The last season clash was so boring. Basically just 17c pike and merchs. Barely stable or 18c units. Also the majority of games ended way to fast. I would love to see some professional replays with mods.

    -Dead forum, no new info
    yeah thats kind of seals it. Like someone else already posted, when was the last post from the developers? sure they still announce new season clash or tiny balance changes. But we havent heard anything from a new dlc or a new game project. And I really doubt that something new will come. I still look here in the hopes that I read a day. We now stop working on C3 and producing AQ2. I mean just look at the announcment forum, new pages basically just one guy posting (bodun) but at earlier pages you see threads from a lot more developers/admins, they havent posted anything in this forum for a very long time.

    Overall Cossacks 3 is dead for me. There were a lot of nice people here but my visiting of this page will become less and less
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  9. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    I also started having problems like this after a recent release. I think it was the second last release that did it. Why would this new problem happen to some people and not other people? I have a few theories but no proofs. The fact that this got worse only recently and only for some people is interesting and perhaps diagnostic.

    If the release in question changed parameters for lost packets and/or high latency, it could have affected some players more than others. My internet is slow by world standards (4.44 Mbps download and 0.66 Mbps upload as I write this). Also, I live in Australia, a long way from the Cossacks server in Europe, so my latency to the server would be about 450 ms. It might be worse depending on the data route.

    I think the devs need to look at client-server protocol changes made in that C3 release or changes to their server about that time.

    It's alright for the people not getting this bug but spare a thought (and an update) for those of us who are getting this bug a lot. I post in hope.
     
  10. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    they rewrote a lot of the netcode FYI to properly add in spectators
     
  11. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    Well they clearly made some mistakes. Because performance is worse for quite a few users. Some users are getting a lot more desynchs and more disconnects. What we have to determine is in what circumstances and to whom are these events happening. My suggested precipitating causes (combined with the bad netcode) are any or all of;

    (1) Large unit numbers games where people get to many thousands of units per player;
    (2) Games between people who are far away from each other, like me in Australia trying to multiplay with people in Europe and USA. (Latency issues.)
    (3) People with slow internet upload and/or download speeds. (Bandwidth issues.)

    For the record, many of my games feature all three of these issues. I suspect my latency is (about) to Eu : 450, to US East Coast : 350 and to US West Coast 250.
    My bandwidth is poor at 4.5 Mbps download and 0.65 Mbps upload. I cannot get anything better and Australia, disgracefully, has worse internet than Mongolia!

    It really is about time we got some C3 fixes. Of course, whether we will or not is anyone's guess. Things don't look good.

    Can someone make a mod removing the netcode added for spectators and reverse the netcode back to what it was? Then those who want can use the legacy netcode? Or is that not possible?
     
  12. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    Im fairly certain nobody keeps a version history of c3 if thats what youre asking for
     
  13. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    I bet Ebel does. I have the data files back to version 2.0.0.85.5756. If I checked my Recycle bin I would likely find earlier ones. Yep, back to 1.9.5.83.5749 which was created ‎21 ‎October ‎2017, ‏‎6:56:06 AM on my PC. I bet Ebel has data files going waaaay back for her work (terrain modding). However, that is scripts not the engine. Hopefully, all the relevant stuff is in the scripts and maybe someone could make a legacy netcode mod and we could see if it made things work any better for some people. Or the results could prove worse than the current situation. No way and telling without a trial.

    (Actually, I have a few old engines too but they would be too old and I would not have a clue how to get legacy code out of there and graft it back into a copy of the current game. Has the engine changed at all? Such carrying on wouldn't be any good for a straightforward mod anyway.)

    Carry on, ladies and gentlemen. :)

     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  14. Ebel

    Ebel Moderator Staff Member

    I do , but I don't think it's gonna be helpful for this. It's fine to trace back script changes, but in this case, it started happening after patch 16.01.18 (2.0.2.87.5828), which had also changes to the engine. Even if you'd manage to make a mod without these changes, you probably won't be able to get on the multiplayer server with it due to version mismatches ( and any other changes they did in the back end of the server to accommodate for these net changes). This really is something GSC has to deal with.
     
  15. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    Yep, well the desynch level in C3 is becoming atrocious. It really is a mess. Unless radical improvements are made soon, this will kill C3 stone dead. What I find bizarre is that the playing community is divided into two groups. One group are saying "There is no desynch problem. Our games are fine." The other group is saying, like me, "The desynchs are ruining most of our games." What the hell is going on? Can anyone get to the bottom of this?

    Personally, I find it very difficult to understand or believe how anyone is having successful, large, multiplayer games. What are the common features of non-desynching games and desynching games in each case? We need a comprehensive analysis so the problem(s) can be diagnosed and fixed. Or are all the happy players playing the PC AI and small quickie games on tiny maps?

    I used to have 1v1 games where we reached 10,000 plus units each and desynchs were rare. The big battles lagged and stuttered for sure but they did not desynch. Now, it's hard to have a single game that works properly.
     
    Loner likes this.
  16. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    Well I stopped playing C3 online due to my terrible internet connection with random disconnects. Thats my fault, sometimes internet isnt working.

    But I watched the season clash replays on the cossacks3 youtube page, there were quite some disconnects which ended games, so it seems other people have problems connectiong with C3.
     
  17. Poppadomus

    Poppadomus Member

    still no response :( it must be true that GSC don't love their game or respect their community.
     
  18. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    I like how you can so quickly draw the conclusion that they dont care about the game or community when GSC is hardly a big studio and they are kinda stuck fixing the game on all possible ends
     
  19. Przemek_kondor

    Przemek_kondor New Member

    Do you know that (that would be nice) or you just believe so?
     
  20. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    I can just ask the devs about their current status whenever i feel like it. The simple matter of fact is that even Cossacks 1 was a technical trainwreck with the only redeeming quality that it managed to hide all the bugs very well behind the finished product. C3 is undergoing constant changes which brings out all the nasty hidden bugs though and now people start noticing things that were an issue more than a decade ago as already.

    UPDATE: So i casually asked my contact about the current status within GSC about their progress on fixes so far and supposedly they might have the patch ready before next season clash.
    For what its worth you can take my word that they are at least working on their game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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