Do we know if there will be any new units?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Eagle Eye242, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. condor_fly

    condor_fly Administrator Staff Member

    Yes they was very maneuverly and have a hight speed to atack ottoman's galleys
    Foeurdr, can you includ here part of De Bouplan text about cossack's ships in english?
     
  2. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    I'm sorry but for the moment I didn't find the text of Beauplan in English. (If someone could find it I could easily found the passage)
    Meanwhile, I can give some little things :
    [​IMG]
    The ship is about 60 feet long (the lenght is in an ancient french measure, it's about 20 meter or 64 feet), wide of 10 to 12 feet (about 3.3 to almost 4 meter or 10.7 to 12.8 feet), and high of 12 feet.
    It got ten or fifteen oars in each side and use to helm to change more easily its directionas it would take to much time to turn in battle, it also have a sail but the cossacks prefer to not use it, they are faster than the ottoman galley when rowing. The ship was made in fifteen days.
    The men onboard can be fifty up to seventy and the boat has 4 to 6 six falconet (or fauconneaux, a little cannon).
     
  3. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    Looks a lot like a Viking long boat?
     
  4. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    It's interesting of course that the "Rus" (Russians) descended from the Vikings ( Varangians or Norsemen).

    But who did the Cossacks descend from? There are at least three theories I have read.
     
  5. condor_fly

    condor_fly Administrator Staff Member

    Yes it is. The "seagulls" sailed effectively as on the rivers as on the sea and always surprised their enemys. After atack on the ottoman's slave markets they did rapid withdrawal. No one ottoman's line ship can't catches them (destroed only in ambush)
    Cossacks was ukrainians and the posterity of Kiev Rus. The Kiev Rus was ruled by viking's dinasty Ryiriky they learnes rusians (not russians) sailing.
     
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  6. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    You have the two theory with the normanist and anti-nomarnist still debating about that.
    Nomarnist are the people who said the name"Rus" came from the vikings while the anti-normanist said the "Rus" are only slavic, as far I know for the moment the normanist have a better archeological support

    About the description of the ship by Beauplan here the first part about one third of the passage :
    Inside the bracket is what I added and inside the square bracket are the correction of Iaroslav Lebedynsky to the original text.
    Beauplan as an horrible use of the ponctuation that I didn't change, bear with it :p
    when they plan to go to the sea, it's without the agreement of the king ; they take it from the general (Beauplan explained just before how the cossacks elected their hetman who is like a general), and then they hold a ruds [rada], that is to say a council, and they elect a general to command them during this journey and follow the same ceremony as we said for their great general, but this one is only for a time ; then they head toward to Skarbniza Woyskowa [Skarbnystia viïs'kova] which is their meeting place, and there,[​IMG]
    build ships of about sixty feet long, ten or twelve feet wide and deep of twelve feet : this ship is whitout keel, build on a small boat of willow wood or tillet (I'm sorry I don't know this wood nor did I found it) which is about fourty five feet long, planked and raised with plank of ten or twelve feet long, wide of almost a feet, that they peg and nail together in clapboard like we build the river ships, until they reach a height of twelve feet, and a lenght of sixty feet, by expanding as they raise ; the thing can be understood better in the drawing I sketched grossly, you can notice the cords of reed large like a barrel,put together end to end, until they reach from one end to another, well tied by ropes of tillet or wild cherry, and they build it as our carpenter use to with rib (4. Nautical One of many curved members attached to a boat or ship's keel and extending upward and outward to form the framework of the hull.) and travers (I didn't find the english traduction, the travers are the side port side or starboard of a ship), then they apply tar to the ship ; they use two helm one in each end , like the the drawing show it, because their ship being of a sure a lenght, they will lose too much time to turn when they need to fall back. They usually have ten to fifteen oars in each side, an go faster than the turk galleys when rowing ; they also have a mast were they put a sail rather badly made, and use it only when the weather is good, prefering to row when there is a great wind. The aforesaid boats are without upper deck, and when they are full of water, the reed tied to the ship all around prevent them to sink in the sea.

    Their biscuits are in a tonne (I don't know what exactly it's, seems like it's a big barrel) long of ten feet and four feet of diameter, well tied, and they take their biscuit by the bunghole. They also have a ponçon (the note say it's a barrel) of boiled millet, and a ponçon with dough undo with water, that they eat with the millet at the same time, of which they make a big deal, and this serve as to eat and drink ; it has the taste a bit sour ; they call it salamake [salamakha] (ukrainian people more information ?), that's to say « delicious eating », for me I didn't find thedelicious taste, and when I have eaten during my periple it has been for having found nothing better. This people are really sober, and if they found one drunkard between them the general throw him out, also they can't bring any alcohol, valuing greatly the sobriety during their initiative and events

    When they took the decision to go to war against the Tatars, to avenge the harm and ravage those did to them, they take their time in fall. In order to do this, they sent in Zaporozhia all the things needed to their initiative and periple, and to the construction of their ships and in general all the things they think they will need, then they go in campaign five or six thousand men, all good cossacks, people of hand well armed, and go to Zaporozhia to make their ships, they are sixty to build a boat which they make ready in fifteen days, as they are of all profession like I said. (Beauplan explained before that cossacks were all kind of jack-of-all-trades)
    In this way, in two or three week of time, they make ready eighty or one hundred ships, of the shape I said before, they get on board in each ship fifty or seventy men with each two muskets and one saber, and have four to six falconet on the sides of the ship, supplied with provisions as it suit them, and are dressed with a shirt and pants, they have a spare with a nasty coat, a cap, six pound of gunpowder and lead (bullet) in enough quantity, with cannonball for their falconet and have each a quadrant. This is the mobile camp of the cossacks in the black sea, which is able to confront the best city of Anatolia.
    Those two parts are about the preparation, I will now begin to translate the part about how cossacks works in the Black sea (hopefully it seems simplier)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015
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  7. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    Between the {} are the note of Beauplan, if something isn't clear don't hesitate to ask or correct me.
    In this way equipped, they go down the Borysthène (Dniepr), the admiral has the mark on the mast which usually goes to tiers de l'avant (from what I found it would be a part of the sail) their ships are so near each other that the oars are almost touching. The Turk usually informed and make some galleys ready at the mouth of the Borysthène to prevent them to go out, but the Cossacks more cunning go out at the favor of a dark night close to a new mon, and keep hiding in the reed three or four league (one league is 3.248 km or 2.018 miles)in the borysthène, where the galleys don't dare to go, having not in the past met their expectation and content themselves with waiting at the passage, where they are always surprised. However they can't pass so suddenly that they are noticed, then the alarm is given to all the country, and go up to Constantinople. {notice that they go only after St John's Eve to be back at the latest at the beginning of August.} The great lord sent messenger to all the coast of Anatolia, Bulgaria and Romanie [Rumelia], so that each is on one's guard, and forewarned that the Cossacks are at sea. But it's in vain, because they take time and the season, that in thirty six or forty eight hours they are in Anatolia, where they set foot on the ground, each o,e with a musket in the hand, leaving only in each ships two men an two boy to guard them ; they surprisent the city, win them, sack and burn them, They go sometimes one league in the country but go back immediately, and embark with their loot, and go somewhere else to try another opportunity ; and if by case fortuitous they meet (an opposition), they attack, otherwise they go back with their loot in their country. And if they meet some turkish galleys or other ships, they pursue them, attack and win. Here is how they do it : it's that their ship have not more than two and half feet on the sea, and they see find a ship or a galley before they are seen by them, then they put the mast of their ship down, (in this passage is written something about the wind but the verb is old and I don't know it, I suppose he say the cossacks search to know under which wind they are) and try to have the sun in their back for the evening. Then, one hour before the sun set, they row towards the ship or galley with strenght, up to one league after, fearing to lose sight of them, and keep doing like this ; then around midnight {this sign being given}, they row powerfully towards the vessel, half the crew ready to fight, who only wait access to go, those of the vessel being very surprised to see themselves attacked by eighty or one hundred ships which fill them with men and win straightaway.

    There is a terrible lack of justification for the text in this forum, my blood of university student scream in horror ! :eek:
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
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  8. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks Foeurdr, this is a lot of work.

    It is much appreciated.

    Daddio
     
  9. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    Yes, Foeurdr's translations are interesting. It looks like a full game model of such military activities would have to include naval boarding. That would be an interesting design challenge.

    In general, I see C1 and C3 as mainly land games. The naval element should be at a level where it supports land operations and does not overtake them as the main focus of the whole game. No doubt some will disagree with my view.

    However, if you take my view then naval operation would center around smaller boats and small ships but not ships of the line or capital ships. Perhaps an option button could help achieve this and leave the big ship games for those who love them. The option button could say;

    (a) no boats or ships
    (b) support land operations only
    (c) full navy.

    Option (b) would permit gunboats, boats about whaleboat size for getting troops across lakes and rivers, troop barges as in C1, yachts, small galleys and boats/ships of the Cossack type Foeurdr talks about above but no more. The rivers should have draft requirements so even galleys could only go up bigger rivers not creeks and streams.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  10. condor_fly

    condor_fly Administrator Staff Member

    Foeurdr, thanks a lot perfect work
    And I'm glad, that my 700-th post is a thankful to a Friend
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  11. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    Here the final and the last part about those ship (after Beauplan talk about love)
    I put the map Beauplan talk about in it, it does look good but the problem is you don't really see much, damn gallica (the site of the national library of France (BNF)) couldn't they put a larger and higher resolution !
    This done, they pillage what they can found of money and merchandises of little size which can't be spoiled by the water, also the cannon and all think can come in handy, then sink the vessel and the men to the bottom of the sea. Here how do the Cossacks ; if they had the ability to stee a boat or a galley, they would also take it, but they don't know such a manœuver. After, it's time to return to their country, the guards are increased (double) at the mouth of the Borysthène to make them pay, but they (the cossacks) don't care that they are weak ; because it can't be that in the fights they had, they lost a lot of their men, and the sea had engulfed some of their ships, all couldn't be so good that none would fail. They go down to a bay who is three or four leage at the east of Oczakow [Otchakiv], at which place is a small valley really low long of a quater of league of high sea rising sometimes of half a feet of water, and go well three league in the upstream part of the Borysthène, where the Cossacks begin to pull their ships with two or three hundred men, one after the other ; and in less than two or three day, they are in the Borysthène with all their loot. Here's how they escape and avoid the battle against the galley, who guard the entrance of the mouth, trhough Oczakow ; finally they go back to Skarbniza where they share like I said before. They have another hideaway : they go back by the limen [liman] of the Don, passing by a strait between Taman and Kercy [Kertch], and head up the limen up to the river of Mius [Mious], and up to where it can carry a ship, as at this source up to the one of Taczawoda [Tatchavoda], there is only one league, and taczawoda go up to the Samare [Samara] who fall in the Dnieper [Dniepr] one league above Kudak [Kodak], like it can be seen on the map. But theyr rarely go back by this way, as the path is too long to go to Zaporoüy (Zaporozhia), sometimes they take this itinerary to go to the sea when there are large force at the mouth of the Borysthène to prevent them to go out, or when they only have twenty to twenty five boat.
    [​IMG]
    (The map is oriented to the south so the black sea is at the top, make a strange view)
    When the galleys meet them in the sea, and it is day, they fire at them with cannon, scatter them like starling, sinking some to the bottom of the sea, stun the surviving, in such a sort those that escaped row in the direction they can. But when they fight against the galleys, they don't move from their bench, the oar attached to the rowlock with a tie of flexible wood (une hart de bois, I'm not totally sure) and when they have shot with a musket their comrade give them another loaded to fire again, and like this fire without break and well. The galleys can only come in hand-to-hand with one ship, the cannon harm them a lot, in those encounter it always remain two third of their men, and it's rarely that they return with half of their crew, but they bring back a rich loot like, réaux (I think it's the plural of real the currency) of Spain, sequin (again a currency I think) of Arabia, carpet, fabric of gold, of cotton, cloth of silk and other merchandise of value. This is what the Cossacks live from, what they pull their income, because as a profession they know no other apart drink and do abundance with their frind when they are back.

    Thanks a lot for your commentary, it put me in a good mood (so good I couldn't sleep yesterday !)
    700 post Condor_fly congratulation, I need a lot to catch up !
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
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  12. condor_fly

    condor_fly Administrator Staff Member

    I gues this map is some kind upturned from south to north, isn't it?
     
  13. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    It is, the map is oriented with the south at the top and that make the map so strange to look at as everything is switched, the north with the south, the east with the west ! :confused:
     
  14. condor_fly

    condor_fly Administrator Staff Member

    Is it France mapmaking tradition of that period?
     
  15. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    I don't think, his other map are oriented with the north at the top

    By the way if it interest someone here's two site I used :
    http://gallica.bnf.fr/?lang=EN
    This one is Gallica, the site of the national library of France (BNF), you can put in english but a lot informations are still in french, really pratical if you search for ancient map or picture, the key word need to be in french though, if it's an author it's easier, the picture of the ship and the map come from there

    http://www.mandragore2.net/dico/lexique2/lexique2.php?page=h
    This one is only in french but if you know the name of a ship you can find pretty good pictures and a short description, I tried with google traduction and you can get a pretty good idea. It also have a lexicon but I don't think it will be much use if you don't know french
     
  16. Masher

    Masher Active Member

    One of the reasons i loved C1 over C2 by far was it's naval element. It was simple and basic numbers game-play, but i remember having countless fun with naval+land battles. I would be very disappointed if the naval side of the game became just an afterthought. I hope they give great detail to the naval side of the game. It will never be as popular as the land battles, but i think more people would be interested in playing a mix of continent/island type maps if the transporting of troops were not so tedious. I loved fighting on continent maps but even i grew tired of the slow ferry only carrying 280 men, Which was basically useless when your enemy would mass thousands of troops on his continent. It kinda meant that most battles would end up in some early land raids, some awesome sea battles with large ship of the lines clashing; then a stalemate since one player would control the sea, the other would be able to protect the center of his continent just by overwhelming any troops you land. It could drag the games on at times.

    I don't think they will focus more on naval than land, but i hope at the very least it receives as much detail as C1 in terms of ships available. I can't wait for a 7 player (wish it was 8) FFA battle on islands with my buddies, some of the most fun i had in a RTS game to date. :)
     
  17. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member


    I don't think continents games were a stalemate if one person got naval control and then built a Victory Ship. Those things could rake their cannonballs far inland and tear an enemy army and enemy base to pieces. Mind you, you needed all mines even coal and iron at 95 men to pay the huge coal and iron costs. What you could do with Victory Ship control was burn down most barracks and stables on your land, send peasants in a transport and built barracks and stables at one end of his continent. Then an army supported by a Victory Ship or two or three could totally destroy his base.

    The problem was the unrealistic effects of the navy in some games. A good friend told me of 2v2 game he was in once. It was a land map but had one little lake in the centre of the map. When the land battles became a stalemate one player built a shipyard and then eventually a Victory Ship in this tiny lake. The ship controlled much of the map and the team with the Victory Ship won. However, realistically you simply could not build and float such a large ship in a tiny lake. The game needs the issue of draft (the depth of water a ship needs to sail) to be incorporated so that big ships cannot sail in shallows and cannot sail in small lakes and rivers.
     
  18. Masher

    Masher Active Member

    Yes the victory ship was good but it was the only real option for that situation and many times i couldn't afford to finish a player off with a victory because i was still fighting another player. Sometimes the mortars would reach the outer bases, but not on a huge map. I always found it too easy to focus down enemy transports even if he had equal war ships i would be able to sink his transports before he can sink all of my war ships. I want some changes to help with that, maybe a 18th C ferry that is slower but far more stronger and can carry a lot more than 280 men etc.

    Yes i have actually done that my self, built a victory in a small body of water on a mainly land fcoused map and managed to wipe out bases. Although that is only on causal games. A good player would never let me get a victory built in a small lake.

    I think they should add a shallow lighter shade of water around coasts and lakes. Only small ships can sail on these areas like gunboats, galleys etc... larger ships like ship of the lines and victory should not be able to sail in the shallow waters. I hope we see some changes like these and not just a copy and paste of exact game-play from C1.
     
  19. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member


    For sure, and as I said in some earlier posts, I would hope to see gunboats, pontoon bridges and bridge-building for games with rivers and lakes. A gunboat or several gunboats in a river or lake would make sense and would be realistic. Ram barges for knocking down temporary bridges would be realistic too. In those days they would fill old barges with stones so they still just floated and then float them downstream to ram temporary bridges and wreck them.


    Also, I want to see realistic cost ratios. For example, what size charge does it take to fire a musket and what size charge does it take to fire a cannon in reality? Make the coal and iron costs in the game reflect this. How much wood does it take to build a house? How much wood does it take to build a large ship? Make the costs in the game reflect this.
     
  20. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    Topic of this thread is about new units?
     
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