Ship suggestions

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Privateer, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    In comparison to war ship, except the heavier, for their size they appear relatively slow and of course under equiped in number of cannon. Also those trade ships were made so that they are easy to operate with a small crew. For trade with India, if I remember well, they were made to be able to do one trip back and forth, they wouldn't be able to do much more anyways due to the wind being unfavorable during certain season, the hold had to be large but the ship itself didn't have to be especially fast.
    I know that in case of war they were often requisitionned but you couldn't expect them to fight well against a real war ship, they had more to do with transporting men and ressource than participating in the fight.

    As for galleon most things I read consider them as primarily war ship, they are certainly heavy since they are used like ship of line and lack speed and the ability to manoeuver fast. On the other hand, I heard more story of them transporting good than participating into fight except being the target of buccaneer, pirates and corsairs. Many captured galleons were even remade when captured to suit piracy activity, for exemple by removing some part of the ship like a deck to make it faster !

    For the pictures I think the galleass I found is french, it got quite a lot of the french royal symbol after all. I found the venetian galleon by pure luck so I put it there ! And the Hermione, simply because I saw it (but under construction) some year ago. Like you said it's a typical frigate mainly know for its use in the American Independance, being the ship which transported La Fayette there.

    Cossacks 3 still has to get a rework of its navy, but it's not for now. First they want to work on the land part before going for the sea.
    I would certainly love to see them adding more depth to the naval side of the game with trade, more importance put in the mobility and the way you use your ships, the ability to board and capture ennemy ship, to repair damage and even more if possible. Make the sea much more fleshed than they are actually and open sea map, the one we have at the moment often have to much land with player and there is not a lot of place to manoeuver huge fleet that end stuck to 5 to the front and the rest waiting for place to move.
     
    Burak Damgacı likes this.
  2. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    Apologies, my mistake, I don't know why I looked at it and suddenly thought Spanish, either way the French Galley/Galleass fleet was slightly better than the one fielded by Spain, however again they aren't as advanced as those built in italy. The ottomans too could be argued to have had better galleys than the french, although it was a matter of taste french Galleys were more sturdy than Ottoman, but ottoman galleys were faster, mainly because they had quite different ideas about technological development and France also had more cross technology coming through from their Atlantic based vessels. Interestingly when it comes to galley speed a typical European galley from the west or north sprinted at around 7kn, Italian galleys would typically go for around 7.5kn, Ottomans would have a top speed of around 8kn being slightly faster than Italians, where as Venetians could manage 9kn. There was a huge amount of both theoretical work and practical experience going on in Venice to shave off and make their galleys faster while still maintaining structural integrity, its fascinating and very nerdy stuff.

    Lets not forget that the Galleon was primarily created to be a trade ship, they were originally designed and built for transporting a large amount of goods from the eastern Mediterranean back to Venice, so as to be sold in the Rialto markets, their combat variants happened a little later as they were adapted by the western European nations like Spain France and England.

    Galleons generally had quite a lot of guns on them, which is part of the reason they are slow, again you have to clarify the difference to the warship built and trade built galleons although they both have too many guns while maintaining a large hold, giving them a bulbous hull shape, the galleons formation out of a carrack also gives it some fairly large problems with roll which is slowly filtered out as Galleons become lineships. Its also a slight mistake to consider that Galleons fought in the line formation, the line of battle as people picture it today was quite different to what happened in Galleon warfare, their large cumbersome guns, built before the typical gun carriage that people imagine naval cannons to have meant it took them a lot longer to reload, so generally speaking the ships would still form rudimentary lines so as to take turns to shoot but after which they would either break formation entirely or go in for boarding action, unlike the long formed firing lines you see in the napoleonic wars.

    Talking a little more about the compromises that are made by the galleon, they were not only slow but generally quite well armed but also equipped with high fore and aft castles so as to be more effective in melee combat, this further meant they would be poor handlers, the many different levels of deck making it quite difficult to reset the sails both in and out of combat, they would also take a comparatively large crew for their size because of the need for gunners, sailors and marines, this again ate into hold space with needs for food and water, from a trade perspective the failings of the trade galleon are what lead to more specialised trade ships such as the fluyt emerging, a fluyt could carry trade at almost 1/3 the cost of a galleon drastically changing the game entirely, it was from here that trade ships started to appear much more distinct from combat ships, where a trade ship could hold its own in combat against smaller vessels but for the most part their planking and framing was too thin to really get stuck into large engagements, which is when you also start to see the development of state navies for properly purpose built warships over commandeered private vessels.

    Also don't get too sucked into the whole pirate galleon stories, as galleons varied in size dramatically it gives a very false impression that the buccaneers were taking large impressive hauls from these ships, there is one story about pirates managing to capture a large galleon, I forget what it was actually called but even the largest ships like the famous Queen Anne's Revenge were small in comparison to most galleons, where pirates have been romanticised out of their realistic ability, generally speaking pirates would prey on smaller vulnerable merchant ships they lacked the military ability and proper organised supply lines to take on medium or large targets.

    Hope this helps :)
     
    Kamilow and Burak Damgacı like this.
  3. Vidas

    Vidas Member

    Burak Damgacı, HUNRex and Kamilow like this.
  4. Vidas

    Vidas Member

    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
    Burak Damgacı likes this.
  5. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Do you have more information about Skampaveya(need English information) and Baidak ships Vidas? Thanks for new ship suggestion. If you find more Ukranian or other nation ships please share us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  6. Vidas

    Vidas Member

  7. Dear friends,

    I would like to make a suggestion for a Spanish and Portuguese naval unit: the galleon ;)

    [​IMG]

    Here you can find information in English about this wonderful naval unit who ruled the Atlantic Ocean from earlier 16th century to the last quarter of 17th century, when the frigate took the relief in the Atlantic hegemony:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galleon

    I think the galleon would be an interest option for giving more depth to the naval gameplay of Cossacks 3.
     
    Burak Damgacı and Vidas like this.
  8. Vidas

    Vidas Member

  9. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    First link, you can find more information ship types with beautiful music:)) We didn't see more ship types which this website(brethrencoast) mentioned.Where are the galliots or others? Fluyt maybe? Pinnace for Holland? Maybe Fusta for Algeria,Portugal,Spain,Turkey or other nations?
    http://brethrencoast.com/Pirate_Ships.html
    http://www.shipmodell.com/index_files/SHIPMODELL_DERFFLINGER.htm
    http://captainfouquet.blogspot.com.tr/2011/04/ship-types-used-in-takshendal.html
    http://devotiontoourlady.com/lepanto-part-5.html
    Second link gave an information for Fluyt . Spanish Empire, Do you have more information about Spanish ships please share us? For example ship types which we didn't know. Pictures,naval tactics also. I think naval shipyard and trade shipyard must be seperated in this game. We need new shipyard with new ships. This shipyard can produce battleships,marine soldiers etc. Trade shipyard can produce fishboats,tradeships etc.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
    Vidas likes this.
  10. Vidas

    Vidas Member

    I think also shipyard must have ships repair funktion. Also need little fast transport ships, and bigger than boat fishing ships (for example herring buss).

    Ships Amhpion (18 th century swedish yacht) for Sweden:

    http://www.modelerscentral.com/ship-model-kits/corel/amphion-18th-century-swedish-yacht/

    Ships Wasa (17 th century swedish frigate or ship of the line?) for Sweden:

    http://www.modelerscentral.com/ship-model-kits/corel/wasa-swedish-frigate-1628/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

    Ships Hemmema (18 th century warship) for Sweden:

    https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/11/11/the-swedish-navy/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemmema


    More about swedish warships:

    http://www2.historia.su.se/personal/jan_glete/Glete-SwedishWarshipList1521-1721.pdf

    Ships Brigantine for England:

    http://www.victoryshipmodels.com/ship-model-golden-star-wooden-static-kit-mantua-english-brig.html

    http://castyouranchorhobby.com/Item/MA769

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantine

    Ships Concorde (18 th century french frigates) for France:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde_class_frigate

    http://www.mauritiushandmadeshipmodels.com/hermione.htm

    Ships Bilander for Netherlands:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilander

    http://sailhistory.com/content/view/115/

    Ships Schooners for Netherlands:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schooner

    Ships Polacca for Venice:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polacca

    http://www.modelerscentral.com/ship-model-kits/amati/polacca-venetian-cargo-ship-1750/

    Ships Pinnace (17 th century warships) for Poland:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arka_Noego


    Prussian 17 th century ships:

    http://felipe.mbnet.fi/Other_Navies/German_Ships_1643-1700/german_ships_1643-1700.html


    In this topic "ship suggestions" already are many players interesting ideas and ships. Now naval units are almost the same for all countries, needs 18 th century naval units. In Cossacks 1 were only one Venetian naval unical unit. In my opinion about half of 21 nations can have unical naval units. If would be added more unical and interesting (like Galleon for Portugal and Spain) naval units for various countries, the game will be more interesting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
    Kamilow and Burak Damgacı like this.
  11. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Yes, you are right Vidas, Need unique naval units for every nation. Repair function is also important. (All ships need not only big ships)I can add one more thing; Trade between Ally ports. Sea trade is also important. In this game we used market. But we need trade between allies. Land trade and also sea trade. We need trade ships. I want to see lively ports. But our possibilities very limited now. We can produce fish boats and some of the warships. No trade ships and no marine soldiers. The merchant must be produced from market or storehouse. That's very important. I must see what will bring or take away ally through the ally market. One more thing, Trade needs more resources like silver or cotton, more agricultural products. Developers must take into account.
     
    Kamilow likes this.
  12. Vidas

    Vidas Member

    Need 18th century ships from Cossacks Back to War, other common ships (for almost all nations): fishing ship lugger, transport/war ship brig, fireship, small warship 17 th century corvette, bigger warship 18 th century corvette and some unical ships for some nations (England, France and others).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_ship

    Maybe also need coastal defence and fortress?:

    http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4337-17th-and-18th-Century-coastal-fortifications

    http://www.militaryarchitecture.com...th-century-hospitaller-coastal-batteries.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sébastien_Le_Prestre_de_Vauban
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
    Burak Damgacı likes this.
  13. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    Daddio and Burak Damgacı like this.
  14. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Spanish Empire, Do you have more information about Spanish ships please share us? For example ship types which we didn't know. Pictures,naval tactics also.
     

    Attached Files:

    Spanish Empire likes this.
  15. Dear Burak,

    There is another genuine Spanish ship, in this case for the XVIII century: the Most Holy Trinity (Santísima Trinidad), launched on March 3rd 1769 at La Habana (Cuba), was the biggest sailing ship ever built. Four decks and 112 cannons, was the flagship of the Spanish Marine and the monster who all European navies feared.

    [​IMG]

    More info in English at:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Nuestra_Señora_de_la_Santísima_Trinidad

    Some pictures of this "monster of the seas" can be found at:
    https://www.google.es/search?q=naví...2NvWAhUC6xoKHTQWBTYQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=633

    Another interesting option for Spain and Portugal is the caravel, a key-ship in the Atlantic exploration and the raise of the colonial empires:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravel

    Some pictures about the caravel at:
    https://www.google.es/search?q=cara...2NvWAhWEXhoKHSPnA-0Q_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=633
     
    Kamilow and Burak Damgacı like this.
  16. Penkover

    Penkover New Member

    Burak Damgacı likes this.
  17. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    Santissima Trinidad was by no means the largest wooden sailing ship, even after she was upgraded to having 140 guns. There are others that dwarf her by 15m, The Ottoman ship Mahmudiye (1829) and HMS Victoria (1859) were both far larger, some of the Chinese treasure ships were also larger than the Santissima, she also doesn't pack the largest broadside poundage either. She is an interesting ship, although her Spanish construction styles make her a bit weaker than British or French ships, meaning while she is heavy she was a particularly poor sailor, despite having pretty good speed.

    Caravels are gone by the Cossacks 3 time period, interesting ships and history though.

    If you want to look more typically at the ships of the Spanish and Portuguese navies they are dominated with Galleons through the 17th century and move towards smaller ships of the line over the 18th century, although Spain supported its smaller line ships, most typically 70 gunners with a number of first rates of around 112-14. guns.
     
    Burak Damgacı and Kamilow like this.
  18. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Thanks for information and pictures Spanish Empire and Fluffy. We must enhance Cossacks 3 ship types. Please go on sharing ship pictures and information for modders and developers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
    Kamilow likes this.
  19. Vidas

    Vidas Member

    Kamilow and Burak Damgacı like this.
  20. Dedly

    Dedly New Member

    I'm very glad that you did bring the ships up, but I would rather see new and fixed cannons first -.-, impossible that tower has lower fire range than Cannon.
    Btw. ships should move all the time since they pulled up anchor, that means especially in fire
     
    Burak Damgacı and Kamilow like this.