Venice Campaign - Idea

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Kamilow, Feb 22, 2017.

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Do you want to see Venetian Campaign and new units for this faction?

This poll will close on Nov 8, 2017 at 12:26 AM.
  1. Yes

    11 vote(s)
    84.6%
  2. No

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  3. I don't know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Kamilow

    Kamilow Active Member

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  2. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    If possible, We also need Swiss and Piedmonte campaigns. I think every nation needs a unique campaign. Developers added many nations with a campaign. Very few of them need a unique campaign. Kamilow said some of them. I added Swiss and Piedmonte:)) France and British also need new campaigns. For example: Spanish Succession or Austrian Succession or Polish Sucession. Adding a new nation and units are very important.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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  3. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    We have Spain,Turkey, Scotland, Prussia, Sweden, Poland, Austria, England(17th century),Ukraine, Russia, French(naval) campaigns. We need Bavaria, Hungary, Saxony, Venice, Portugal, Algeria, Denmark campaigns. Holland will come new Dlc:))
     
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  4. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    It really surprises me that someone voted no for this, especially as Venice is one of the most interesting nations around, a republic that embraced multiculturalism more than anywhere else I can think of leading to some really interesting military structured and units.

    There's got to be something to be said about a western nation that embraced eastern european and Islamic ideas to create something quite unique, combining western heavy artillery, heavy and specialist infantry with style eastern light infantry and taking influence from Islamic and the Balkans when it comes to shock and light cavalry.

    I'm currently thinking about 2 large posts and depending on what people want I can prioritise one over the other, one is thinking reistically about how a Venetian campaign might work, the other would be looking more in depth into the role and ideas of Venetian troops and ordinance so please let me know.
     
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  5. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    That's the real problem. We cannot see really unique nations. England has no unique 17th century units(roundheads etc), some nations have not unique 18th century units. Venice nation one of those. Venice haven't 17th and 18th century units. You say right Fluffy. I don't know who is he, but I guess we voted for Venice campaign and new units. We wrote many times as ''Venice need unique units.'' But we have no gain. Ships are other story. I have no clue how might Venetian campaign. Maybe developers will be adding this campaign between new nation pack:)) Do you have any information about Venice rival Genoa? Army,navy etc. I asked before you but I have no answer.
     
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  6. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    I have various ideas of the Venice Campaign. Firstly, naval campaign. Venetian has unique ships. I refer to '' Hunting for Barbary Pirates'' and with new achievement ''Pirate Hunter''. Venetian ships hunt more pirates who don't reach your territory and take this title.Secondly,land campaign; Take the Ottoman border fort Klis back or something. (need unique force Uskok) Sorry I have no historical information.But You can look at these links for information about Klis fortress;
    http://apartments-k88.com/info.html
    http://www.total-croatia-news.com/what-s-happening/8696-siege-of-klis-fortress-re-enactment
    http://www.digitaljournal.com/life/...pectacular-1532-battle-of-klis/article/392876
    http://www.balkanhistory.org/siege-of-klis-1537.html
    http://www.hotel-dioklecijan.com/blog/uskoks-battle-klis/
    These are offensive campaigns. I have an idea for defensive.Cretan campaign, Balkan campaign with unique achievement protect one Balkan fort against Ottoman invading force and take it'' Protector of La Serrenissima''. We can add land and naval campaign: Morea or something. You have more information Fluffy say something new:))
     
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  7. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    @Burak Damgacı
    Sorry Burak, the reason I didn't make your question a priority and go into the Venetian rivalry with Genoa is because by the time we get to the 17th century it doesn't really exist, especially as state to state hostilities, although a cultural competitive rivalry still affected the relationship between the two cities. Genoa was hit quite hard by the trade wars, after the war of choggia the debt it had accumulated through hiring the large number of oarsmen needed for the conflicts hit the city quite hard, furthermore the loss of competitiveness of trade in the Mediterranean made recouping the loss more painful, eventually leading them to political instability and then a period of french rule. Venice on the other hand was busy dealing with their growing rivalry with Milan, they kind of just fell off each other's radars, where Venice was in a league above Genoa in terms of military and commercial ability. While Genoa maintained itself as a wealthy city it never rose to the level of its medieval significance again. These positions of much more relaxed relations were solidified by the Italian wars, where Genoa stayed largely neutral and Venice spent the wars trying to balance power for its own benefit. Genoa did however use its cultural frustration with Venice as a driving force that helped bring about the colonial age, where Genovese explorers and sailors were a massively important part of looking for alternative trade routes to bypass Venetian and Ottoman monopolies, after relative peace the two did briefly come to blows again in the War of the League of Cognac, as part of the Italian wars although as minor parts compared to the main war effort between Spain and France. Over time the Genovese drive for exploration through the Atlantic powers became far more damaging than the growth of trade opportunities allowed for. By the later half of the 16th century the two had become reluctant allies, fighting together at Lepanto in 1571, and although cultural rivalry still persisted they stayed out of each others way, Genoa looking into the new world and taking part in limited colonial ventures within the Spanish empire, Venice maintaining its position as dominant trader in the Mediterranean but the comparatively small size of the Venetian state meant it become increasingly squeezed militarily. As a side topic its my personal opinion, not so much historical fact, I consider that a large part Napoleon's incredibly hostile attitude towards Venice and everything Venetian was mostly caused by his cultural background as a Corsican gained through the islands history with Genoa, especially as his attitude of disgust towards Venetian lifestyle and its products quickly disappeared after a Venetian frigate saved Napoleon from certain death or capture in his failed Egypt campaign.

    I hope that answers your question, apologies it was delayed, please do remind me if there is something you want to know a bit more about and I missed it out in one of my posts, I get distracted quite easily.

    Thats quite a nice little campaign idea you have there, I will post some of my own thoughts on the potential campaign ideas before or after I do some more specialist posts about the military itself and individual roles and go into a bit more depth, background, contrast and context for specific types of soldiers fighting for the Republic.
     
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  8. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Thanks for your answers Fluffy, I have a little information about Genoa or other Italian states and That's why I asked you. You mentioned that Christoph Colombus and other Genovese explorers. That's good. What did you say this picture?
    http://www.uniformology.com/G04.html
    I want to ask you other questions:
    1- Uskoks; enemies of Venice or allies of Venice?
    2-Two Sicilian position? Venice ally or not?
    3- Except Marco Polo,Venice have famous explorers?
    4-Genoa, French ally or Spain ally?
    Thats all for now. Thanks for answer again. Np.You can answer when you have a time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 11:39 PM
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  9. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    I'm not so good at answering questions on other Italain states, you will likely find much better answers from someone else, sadly I am a bit of a one trick pony in that regards, I don't really have much to say about that uniform either, its a nice find though. I'm also not going to go into huge details for the questions you asked but I will answer them for you.

    1) Uskoks: The relationship between Venice and Uskoks is quite complicated, Venice for the most part had a strong relationship with the Balkan communities, they were key trading partners for basic resources, of which grains and metals were the most important imports, where as Venice exported luxury items and manufactured goods to the region. The actual Uskok people themselves like many of the groups from the area, the Morlachs, Stradioti etc. saw a fair amount of military service for Venice. The Uskoks did however develop a much more close relationship towards Austria and generally speaking Austria was on good terms with Venice, mainly due to their common enemy in the Ottomans. The Venetian Austrian relationship and the traditional habit of Venice padding out their army with mercenaries from the Balkans meant that more often than not Venice kept good terms with the Uskok people. On the other hand the Uskoks who's main income was mostly fighting as mercenaries had little income during peacetime, this lead them to taking part in quite an extensive amount of piracy, helped by the jagged dalmatian coast. This piracy meant that Venice could also be incredibly hostile towards the Uskoks, Venice maintained a zero tolerance policy for piracy almost as long as the republic existed, even banning privateering of enemy merchants, where should a ship with cargo be captured it would immediately become property of the state. As a way to combat the Uskok piracy the Venetian navy regularly patrolled the various inlets and coves of what is now the coast of Croatia. Venetian shipping was an incredibly lucrative target for these Uskok pirates, but it also meant that many of those who took to piracy met the end of their days to a Venetian Adriatic Galley. The extent of Piracy even resulted in a small scale war known as the Uskok war (1615-18), where Venice, The Dutch Republic and England fought against the Uskoks, who were supported by Austria, Spain and Ragusa, this conflict lead to the death of a huge number of the Uskok people.

    2) Two Sicilies: This is a very simple question to answer, mainly because the Venetian republic ended in 1797 and Two Sicilies was founded in 1816, so they never actually interacted. However traditionally Naples and Venice were often on good terms, although they did have a difficult relationship in the early medieval era due to both jostling for Mediterranean trade.

    3) Venetian explorers: Venice is pretty famous for explorers so there are quite a few names who are pretty famous, North America was discovered by a Venetian, known as John Cabot, although his real name was Giovanni Caboto. Others include Marco Polo's ancestors, Niccolo and Maffeo. One of the things that is celebrated amongst modern Venetians, especially those who were born into the old noble bloodlines is the family explorer, almost every Venetian family has their own thanks to the many merchant adventures through the Venetian golden ages.

    Here is a list of a few of the more famous explorers in no particular order:
    • Niccolo di Conti
    • Alvide da Ca' da Mosto (the ancestor to one of my favorite historians, Francesco Da Mosto)
    • Gasparo Balbi
    • Giovanni Battista Belzoni
    • Cesare Federici
    • Antonio Pigafetta
    • Giosafat Barbaro
    • Ambrogio Contarini
    4) Genoa France vs Spain: Genoa beyond the 1400s took a much more low key role on the international scale, they for the most part just took achievements within other nations, keeping cordial with the larger powers, they kept on good terms with Spain and France simultaneously, although they did spend quite a few chunks of their history almost as an informal protectorate state under France. National identity and state was less important to the citizens of Genoa than it was in other parts of Italy and Europe, they valued private commercial freedom as more important, which to some extent was what lead them not to become a significant power but lead to a lot of combined projects where ambitious Genovese families were frequently enjoying international projects with Spain, Portugal and France, even as I mentioned earlier on in the thread engaging in small colonial ventures within the Spanish and Portuguese empires. Sadly like I said earlier I don't have the expertise to really comment too deeply on Genoa, hopefully that is enough for you.
     
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  10. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Thanks for answer Fluffy I learned a lot of things which I've never known. But I'm so confused. You said Two Siciles founded 1816 but Vinhuizen collection says different.
    https://digitalcollections.nypl.org...7bc34/23:5cb01e90-c548-012f-a0f1-58d385a7bc34
    Here is the uniform link:)) 1730? This date real? They have more units in 1730-1740. Maybe first founded date is different I don't know. In Cossacks 3 Venice needs naval trade and trade ship. I think it's quite important. Venice is very weak now. I watched all the battles in multiplayer. Venice didn't win no even once. Venice needs more units(ships,soldiers, etc maybe special artillery like Scotland)
    Well, I'll search other Italian states. I have no question now.
     
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  11. Kamilow

    Kamilow Active Member

    I am curious what the developers thinks about this matter. And that they will do something with this.
     
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  12. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Yes we must see something. Venice need new units and very good campaign:))
     
  13. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    It's likely that the source you are referring to about the Two Sicilies has some slight misinformation going on, either the dates are slightly wrong or more likely the source is referring to the kingdom of Naples that was mostly independent at the time, the illustrations you are referring to aren't of the period they are drawn in 1910 so it's not likely that they will be perfect.

    On the other hand the Scottish tech for the carron foundry is such an odd one, especially speaking from the point that the carron foundry is best known for its short range cannons, the carronade, while the company is important the idea it should give a range advantage is quite laughable, they produced short range guns. Also the achievements of the scottish gun founders compared to what was going on in artillery in Venice is quite laughable, Venetian guns had far better range than those made in Britain Spain France or Austria at the time, especially those case in bronze. They Venetian guns of the 17th and 18th century are more comparable to guns of the 19th century and more generally resemble guns from the American civil war period. There is an absolute advantage in pretty much all common guns too, with Venetian Obusiero, cannons and mortars all being more advanced than designs by other contemporary nations. To put it into Cossacks 3 terms it's almost like Venice rocks up at the start of the game with nearly all of the artillery tech already researched, tested and improved on.
     
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  14. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Fluffy, you misunderstood me.I've only exemplified not compared. Scotland is a unique nation in Cossacks 3. But, Venice isn't. I have no deeply information about Venice. By the way,you are right. Venice had a quite strong artillery battery. But we can't see in this game.Can we say %100 Two Sicilies=Naples? I've just seen this collection and send you.Alright then. I trust your information. I've remembered that I've asked you before:''Did you have Pdf format Venetian works?''For military (infantry,navy or etc.) I have no answered too:))
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017 at 9:34 AM
  15. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    Sorry for the misunderstanding, Venice had such wonderful artillery, it's a shame the Tirar Bombe cannons got scrapped in the 1740s-50s, because who doesn't love the idea of a gun that can fire explosive shells 5km designed in an age where most guns struggled to fire over 2. I'd actually be tempted to make it one of the unique units but it would be so OP then again each shot was quite expensive so that might at least partially balance it a little.

    We can't say for 100% whether it's Naples or Two Sicilies, it depends on whether you consider the date information or the national information to be more accurate, although I'd place my bets much more towards it being Neapolitan than Two Sicilies.

    I don't have any pdf versions of anything, I'm not aware of what is out there in pdf format either, I tend to rely most on printed academic sources. I know there are some snippets available on Google books but they usually miss out the best and most useful parts, there's probably a few others out there too, the trouble is there's surprisingly few sources on the Venetian military, those we do have are kind of sketchy which is frustrating knowing how well it was documented and archived at the time...

    I keep meaning to find some time to take some pictures to share with you guys but for the most part I am far too pressed for time and the time I have had has been burdened with horrible lighting. In the mean time if I come across any pdf format pieces I will make sure to share them here :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017 at 6:55 PM
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  16. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    No problem. Thanks for answer again.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017 at 5:55 PM
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  17. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Fluffy,Do you have an information about Venetian armory? Where did they buy weapons? Sabres,muskets? Did they produce own weapons or just buy different nations? You said they produced good artillery. Did they have special weapons?Except Tirar bombe cannons. Muskets, sabres etc. Finally, Do you have a picture the Tirar bombe cannon?
     
  18. HUNRex

    HUNRex Member

    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017 at 10:12 PM
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  19. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    The armoury isnt something I have had a huge amount of experience with, I do however likely have access to a chunk of information buried in at least one of my books. They mostly produced their own weapons supplementing it with a small but steady stream of imports. Cannons were cast in iron in Brescia, and in bronze in the Arsenal in Venice, small arms were mainly constructed in Brescia and Treviso. When it comes to the metals they used to produce these weapons the iron was sourced fairly locally from various mines in the alpine foothills, where as the bronze was created with Hungarian copper and English tin from Cornwall. While sadly I'm not very clued up on why I know that Venetian small arms were made from a slightly different type of iron ore than they cast their guns out of so as to deal with the different requirements of the weapons themselves, the small arms were a little softer than artillery.

    Generally there aren't any "special" weapon systems as such beyond the Tirar Bombe, and the Fregata Grossa, they did however employ a large level of technological excellence with advances that in some cases were a century or beyond the curve. The Tirar Bombe is a very special case as it basically combines the most forwards thinking anywhere in artillery technology all into one weapon, long before the same discoveries were made anywhere else. Venice relied more on technological progressions such as rifling and advanced metalworking more so than secret weapons, for example rifling had been persistently improved from its introduction to the city around 1530, something that the rest of Europe didn't develop until the early 19th century. The most obvious examples of high end weaponry do usually point towards large ordinance, the most popular types of gun in the republic during the Cossacks 3 period being the mortar, cannon and obuseiro (howizer), each having significant range and stopping power advantages over their contemporaries, even so over Britain and Austria.

    I do have a diagram of the Tirar Bombe but not in digital form, I will upload it at some point for you to see. For now here is the ship plans for Terror, as one of the 29 ships of the first rate 70 gun San Lorenzo Zustinian class, the design being drawn up in 1690, with the nameship being launched in 1691. The San Lorenzo Zustinian wasn't the largest ship of the line of the Venetian republic, the title going to the 74 gun Corona built in 1714. The San Lorezno Zustinian class is however one of the designs of the time where the Tirar Bombe was being used by the Venetian navy on their larger ships to devastating effectiveness, despite not being used as effectively as they were designed to be. Interestingly threedecks.org is actually a fairly reliable source on Terror, where as its not particularly good on the vast majority of the Venetian ships.

    Here are the plans, apologies for the page bending:

    [​IMG]

    Here is a nice picture of the San Lorenzo when compared to the silohette of the famous British first rate HMS Victory:

    [​IMG]

    I personally much prefer the design of the later Venetian first rates but the large numbers in this class and the service they provided during the two Morean wars make for some interesting reading. Again some more apologies for not having a proper digital link to the weapon I keep teasing about, I will try and make a nice digital copy soon, sadly no cast examples exist so drawings are all we can go by. As ever if anyone wants to know anything more please do ask and I will do my best to answer :)
     
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  20. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Active Member

    Thanks for an answer again.I don't know why I cannot see the pictures. Can you send again, please? You said iron, bronze, copper,tin... where did they buy sulphur? I think it's very important. Sulphur is the main material for weapons.(Maybe they could buy in England like Ottoman empire. I don't know.) I want to know Venice used multibarrel guns against infantry formations? That's very important and We can talk about Venice infantry tactics. I don't have Mallet work. But you can say something to me Fluffy. My other question is Venice had a special ship formation? We can't see in Cossacks 3 game. But this feature is very important. I know my questions are so repetitive and annoying. But I have an endless desire for learning about Venice and other nation's history:)) Question and answer type progression so good for me. I realized and undestood more things about Venice army and navy now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017 at 11:33 PM