Venice Campaign - Idea

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Kamilow, Feb 22, 2017.

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Do you want to see Venetian Campaign and new units for this faction?

Poll closed Nov 8, 2017.
  1. Yes

    18 vote(s)
    81.8%
  2. No

    3 vote(s)
    13.6%
  3. I don't know

    1 vote(s)
    4.5%
  1. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    Sorry I haven't posted here for a while, I have been rather busy of late and have had to divert my attention elsewhere.

    As a little update I have just ordered the books;
    Gli Schiavoni. Le Fedelissime Truppe Oltremarine di Venezia. Tre Secoli di Storia 1500-1797.
    L'esercito veneziano del '700. Ricerche e schizzi.
    (I finally found a second hand copy and from the sound of it its in great condition too, hopefully)

    So those should arrive in the next few weeks.

    I also recently received my copy of Le mura di Bergamo e la guarnigione veneta fra '500 e '600. so hope to find some time to decipher and post some stuff from what I learn from this too, its a good book from the look of it with some nice illustrations, hopefully they can add to my understanding of the subject :)
     
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  2. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Oh, very good news Fluffy:))) I hope this section will get better. Don't forget to make your comments which you learn from these book and share pictures. It's utmost important. I'm still reading my book and when I finish I'll share more information and ask you some questions:))
     
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  3. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

  4. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    Well ill probably slap in morlach guys into my mod at some point, though adding mounted archers to every nation takes precedence.
     
  5. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

    Add also Stradioti for Venice , Bedouins for Algieria and Ironsides for England.
     
  6. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    Depends on how much fun it would be to add them. At the end of the day my mod isnt intended to simulate realism. Its all about gameplay.
     
  7. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

  8. Wralth

    Wralth Active Member

    Idk what youre talking about dude there arent even half a dozen modders doing cossacks 3 content so asking for expensive modding tools would only make us look like pretentious millennial snowflakes.
     
  9. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    I've not really looked at the other examples but generally speaking the osprey books are fairly badly researched, especially the Venetian Empire 1200-1670, it has some pretty awful inaccuracies in it and as far as I can recall hasn't been revised in the nearly 30 years its been published. I also have Osprey's other medieval italian based books on their militia, condottieri and general army composition, they aren't nearly as well researched as the soldiershop series, although they are harder to work with thanks to them only being published in Italian.

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  10. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    Apologies it has been a while, I have meant to post this for a few weeks now but its an article looking at the similarities between the famous Russian Edinorog (Unicorn/Licorn) cannon and the Venetian Cannoni di Nuovo Invenzione, the article is a nice brief essay and introduction to both guns, with a little bit of their history and some fantastic bibliography and sources to list, the notes are also worth having a flick through because the text is a great little enlightening passage. To read you can either download or just scroll down for the full article.

    Enjoy :)

    http://www.academia.edu/15084546/The_Russian_Unicorn_and_the_Venetian_cannone_di_nuova_inventione_
     
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  11. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Hi, Fluffy, you are right. Some of the Venice books, language is Italian and rare to find too. I saw Battlefield series on the internet. But I haven't read too. I wonder what they say about Ottoman army and Venice army .I think Venice nation's army still need well-search studies and books too. I finished my book about The Battle of Lepanto. I'll start a write article about Venice, Ottoman and also Spanish navy. But I'm afraid it takes a time. I must review what I know or not. I suggest you to read this book too. It gives great information about all navies and some of the land forces and battles before Lepanto. I'm expecting you to share good articles like that pdf. If I can find Ill share too. As I said I must review my knowledges then start writing.
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    I found these lectures posted, they seem very informative on the long history of Venice.





     
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  13. Rhayn

    Rhayn Member

    This thread is really a rich gold mine for mods; when I'll be done with the restyle of Turkey's buildings (which will take me a big amount of time) I could start adding all these missing features to Venice and Turkey (Algeria could come in a second time) at least as basic units for the moment, since my aim is to change the core of the gameplay
     
  14. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Hi Fluffy, As promised I wanted to ask some questions about ship armament. Alessandro Barbero book original name is Lepanto,La Battaglia Dei Tre İmperi. I read Turkish edition. At the end of the book author gave huge ship armament list. It directed my attention. Because It had guns and muskets too, and which I haven't heard them before. For example,Venice galleys had Zunigo and Braga type muskets,Aspide type gun too. Cenova galleys had Sagra or Sacra type gun, Toscana galleys had Mascoli, Naples galleys had Buzacos gun,Masculus gun. Maybe a Turkish edition can contain Turkish words and Translator changed the original armament names. I don't know. If you have an information about this list Please express me. I want to learn more things about ship guns, muskets too. Maybe Venice and other Italian states used same armament Sacra or Sagra type gun is standard I think. I encountered Sicily, Naples, Toscana galleys too. After that I'll start to share what I learned that book too. See you later friend.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  15. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    I did this earlier for somewhere else, I figured you might find it interesting here. ps, I will find some time to answer you Burak sorry.

    The machine gun, now a staple of any military force the world over has long been credited with being invented in America in 1862 during the American Civil war, the famous Gatling Gun named after its creator Dr. R.J. Gatling revolutionised the world of warfare. The Gatling Gun itself was just the amalgamation of something that had been pondered over for millennia, with notable rapid fire weapons being designed throughout history, long predating the use of gunpowder weapons with inventions such the Lián Nŭ (The Chinese repeating crossbow). The gunpowder age saw many attempts to try and create a fast firing weapon system, most notably the Ribauldequin of the medieval era developing into a whole series of different mechanisms for multi barrel weapons, however none of these were true rapid fire weapons, they were just volley guns set to do devastating damage with long reload periods. The first potential example of a true machine gun comes about as a somewhat theorised mythological creation of Leonardo da Vinci, who allegedly designed a crank handle rapid fire weapon (brought to life in the assassins creed series), however its not clear whether the design if ever real would have worked due to it being lost to history. By the time we get to 1718 we see the invention of the puckle gun, which while saw limited service and response showed a major step forwards in rapid firing weapons, and while not remarkably fast as an action, requiring cranking forwards to use the next battle it was a huge step forwards, sadly not taken up by those it was proposed to, mainly due to conservatism the potential of this new weapon was never truly realised.

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    Moving further into the 18th Century, a century known for its almost constant warfare between the major European powers we start to see some major lurches forwards in weapons technology as states competed for any advantage they could gain. The period also saw massive growth of instability as states fought themselves to bankruptcy whilst major climate changes left poor harvests and people hungry, these conditions created a sense of paranoia in Italy, the small nations with the best farmland in Europe saw increasing threats from international conflict capitalising on their wealth and land, these conditions lead to the Italian states investing huge sums into promising weapon makers exploding the 1770s and 80s into a golden age for Italian weaponry, with most famous example of inventions from this period being the Girandoni air rifle invented in 1779 by Bartholomäus Girandoni.

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    Looking further at Venice in particular, the richest state in Italy you see huge external threats posturing for the rich farmland of the Po Valley and Fruili region as Austria sought to consolidate its Italian territory, Venice was also under increasing pressure from the Barbary states, who during the time were getting more and more aggressive as France and Spain were focussed on the war of American Independence, then later the collapse of the French monarchy. This period oversaw a huge update program as Venice modernised its weapons and fortifications to potentially deal with any of these threats, its during this period we see the complete overhaul of their naval framing and construction methods by Angelo Emo, the adoption of a new service musket, designed by Gasperoni Tartana a significant improvement over the Prussian Potzdam and the Austrian Kommissflinte it was based on. The other notable advancement of this period was a machine gun.

    The Machine gun was the brainchild of a gunsmith named Giorgio Bergamin, it answered a continual issue for the Venetian state in that they were forever pressed for manpower when compared to the other European states, despite both having a strong mercantile legacy as the largest traders in the eastern Mediterranean and and red sea whilst also owning wealthy land holdings on the Italian mainland. The benefit of this weapon is it dramatically grew the fighting capability of the main military needs of the republic, as a swivel gun on their ships and as an emplaced weapon in their fortifications, the lifeblood of the Venetian state.

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    The gun itself was first presented in 1772, and appears in the 1773 inventory report undertaken by the Venetian senate, it works with the same paper cartridges used by the Venetian muskets, (18.3mm), these cartridges were stored in a magazine which was fed into one of the multiple barrels through gravity. The machine gun fired through a complex flintlock arm that not only set off the powder charge but also primed the barrel and cleared out any misfired shots. The barrels were easily removable, similar to the famous MG42, where after sustained fire they would need to be changed mainly to scrape out the fouling. This all meant that a team of 3 or 4 men could potentially deliver similar firepower as a small company, significantly levelling the playing field for the man strapped Venetian forces when threatened by larger foes.

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    The weapon saw limited production, mainly testing models to take part in a long and drawn out trial period, where it was deemed potent but rather inaccurate, its inaccuracy and quite costly production coming under question by prominent members of the council of 10, who were concerned over the costing, preferring to have more accurate traditional cannons over this new rapid firing invention, Venice suffering an overly bureaucratic state of mind with a culture of military penny pinching that didn't respond well to the wasteful nature of these weapons and how rapidly they went through powder and shot. The council of 10 were also greatly concerned for what might happen should these weapons fall into the wrong hands or their enemies, mindful of the rising tensions of the era. Despite this a handful of these guns did accompany Angelo Emo's expedition against the Bey of Tunis, where they were incredibly effective in ship to ship combat whilst also offering a fantastic effect on opposed amphibious assaults and on the morale of the enemy in general, despite this success in the field they were still given a fairly poor reputation back home by the high officials of the Venetian government for being seen as an expensive part of an expensive campaign.

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    After the cessation of the Venetian Barbary war those guns that saw service were mothballed and warehoused alongside those that had slowly been produced over the period, they remained a state secret until Napoleon's campaign into italy, where they were briefly discussed to be rolled into active service again, however the Venetian senate noted the complexity of the situation where Austria and France continually occupied and counter occupied various areas of the Venetian mainland meaning secretive deployment to important positions would have been impossible, furthermore it was discussed that the weapons should be dispersed secretively away from the conflict so as not to fall into the enemy armoury so these weapons found themselves hidden away around Italy. Following the fall of the Republic and the Napoleonic conflicts they slowly resurfaced mainly as curiosity pieces for Italian nobility, 20 making it back into the hands of Venetians. The machine guns were later used in the Italian wars of unification, although after around 80 years of weapon development they were somewhat outdated.

    Today the weapons are mostly prize pieces of collectors, however a handful of museums contain examples of these stunning weapons, most notably the Armoury of the Doge's Palace in Venice, The History Museum of Bergamo and the Italian Artillery Museum in Turin. There are also sketches of the weapon as part of the pictorial collection of Venetian weapons in Domenico Gasperoni’s Artiglieria veneta (1782), which provides detailed sketches of some of the most impressive, beautiful and horrifying Venetian weapons including some of their closest kept state secrets, copies of the book are scattered all around the world such as the one housed in the Wallace Collection in London.

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    Thank you for reading [​IMG]


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  16. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Thank you friend. No problem I can wait at end of the world:)) I didn't see some of the pictures. last 6 pictures. Can you share with me again? Maybe pinterest is good. I don't know what the problem is. One question, all Turkish edition gun name same in Italian resources? Zunigo, Braga or something? Do you have any information about Venice light infantry? Timeline is 1750-1790. Demoul needs help.I'm searching. Maybe Greek origin infantry or Oltramarina is good choice I don't know. Excellent work.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  17. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    Sorry burak, I forgot you can't see images hosted on imgur. Oltramarini infantry aren't just greek, they are just infantry from overseas, most notably from the dalmatian coast. I keep meaning to do a write up about them but I haven't got round to it, I've got a lot of information on them so i do hope to post something about them sooner or later.
     
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  18. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Thx friend. I said that maybe Oltramarini infantry or maybe Greek units are good choice for Venice light infantry. Maybe you misunderstood me. I know that Oltramarina soldiers came from Dalmatian coasts. Croat and others. I mean that we have two options to add Venice light infantry. Maybe I can find more information about other light units. I don't know. Now I'm sending you a very good pictures. See you later. I'm looking forwarding to see your new posts. I learned more new things from you. Thank you.
    https://www.corfuhistory.eu/?avada_portfolio=βενετικές-στολές
    But no download. Thats very bad indeed.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  19. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    I've been struggling though this a bit, Ive tried to come up with a worthwhile answer but the truth is I don't really know enough about what makes cannons different, made more difficult by the fact that my best resources are in italian so its a bit like working through treacle, something that might answer your question though is some of the sources I am working with.

    Carlo Beltrame and Marco Morin are probably the best sources we can use on the issues, with some reflection on some of these, giving pictorial and some written guides.

    http://virgo.unive.it/beltrame/foto.html
    https://www.academia.edu/8144272/Sample_pages_from_the_book_I_cannoni_di_Venezia
    https://www.academia.edu/9932187/Venetian_iron_artilleries_in_the_XVth-century

    I will keep trying to dig up more bits as I can, beyond books there isn't much I can share with you, sorry.
     
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  20. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Hi Fluffy, No problem friend. If you found something, you can write this. I forgot what I asked to:)) I think these gun types could be Italian gun types. Maybe Spanish I don't know:)) But it was difficult to answer to. I see this problem. Thanks for informations friend. I will look at them. I'm always asking though questions to learn useful things:)) I think this is very important to me. I believe that this is the main difference between two armies. Gun power. Ship types, crews,soldier quality,special equipments are also important too. Nowadays I'm very busy, I couldn't write anything about Barbero book too. But I didn't forget. I'll share what I learned. But I need time.
     
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