C3 economy

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Nowy, Oct 15, 2015.

  1. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I wonder how could looks economy development in C 3 game. Will this similar to C 1 game?

    Maybe GSC can add some changes there, some new elements and aspects. They already showed new buildings, cereal plants, mines, stone pits, packhorses, various carts and wagons. I wonder how they will work in the game? Can they change something in economy development?

    It could be interesting improve some aspects. Gameplay could be less focused on resources gathering and stone trading known from C1 game. It would be fine include more important roles for other economy sectors, especially for agriculture, manufacturing, fishing, shipping, trading, financial services which were very important at period represented in the game.

    Mining, wood cutting and stone pits played important, but generally supportive roles.
    Manufacturing, fishing, shipping and trading were very important for some mercantile oriented nations as like English, Dutch or Venetian. Colonial products were very important for colonial powers as like Spain, Portugal, England, France and Netherland. East trade was important for Ottomans Turkey, Russia and Venetia. More efficient urban jobs, financial services and industrial development in Europe allow faster grow up economy than simple resources gathering..

    Agriculture also needs some changes Cereals plants and windmills are not enough.
    It would be fine include in the game more crops cultures, animals husbandry, some regional variety and colonial products. For instance:
    1. Animal husbandry in Europe = cattle, horses, mules, pigs, sheep
    2. Animal herds in Asia Minor and North Africa = camels, horses, donkeys, sheep, goats
    3. Four main cereals plants: wheat, rye, barley, oats
    4. Cash crops: olives, potatoes, wine yards
    5. Fibre crops and products: cotton, flax, hemp, silk
    6. Colonial products: sugar, rice, spice, tea, coffee, cocoa, tobacco
    7. Fruits and vegetables: apple, orange trees, bean, carrots, berries, tomato, turnips
    Regional variety, weather conditions, more important manufacturing, shipping, trading, colonial products, financial services would be fine for specific national economy development. Sawing, growing, harvesting and ploughing seasons also would be interesting. These things can add new aspects in the game.
     
    Umbral and DrowLegend like this.
  2. Grubnessul

    Grubnessul Member

    I think that would be a too detailed economy for a game with the scope of Cossacks 3. Cash crops are viable, if implemented like AoE3 did it, a building that generates gold. Same goes for animal husbandry, that game had a building that spawned sheep/cows if memory serves me correctly.
     
  3. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I do not think that my propositions are too detailed. I am certain these things are doable. Many RTS games included more economy aspects. These better represent 17-18th centuries economy.

    For instance.

    GSC old AC game already allow gather meat from shot wild animals. C2 inlcuded live stock, however did not implement slaughterhouse or any other farm buildings which can represent animals husbandry and meat or other food production.
    C2 game included even industrial development, however poorly showed in villages up grades or British factory.

    So, more economy aspects are doable, however needs better implementation.
    More crops, animals and colonial products are not so hard to implement. More important roles for manufacturing, fishing, shipping, trading and financial services also are doable. Industrial revolution, regional and national diveristy will be fine too.

    More economy aspects allow play various gameplays, include more realistic scenarios for national development.
    These were evidently different economy development conditions and strategies in Europe, Asia or Africa.

    It will crazy when crowds of peasants will gather few resources, but stone trading known from C1 game still could be main tactics in C3 game. Timeline presented in the game was not Stone Age I suppose. Therefore more improvements in C3 economy are necessary.
     
  4. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    While the economy is important to any real RTS game, I think it should be accomplished early in the game. once setup, and implemented properly it should run itself with only minor adjustments by the player. And these should be easy to do. If not then it takes away from the Tactics, strategy, and combat.

    I thought that C2 had this down to a science. I really enjoyed the troop, and economy management aspects of C2.
     
    Loner likes this.
  5. Umbral

    Umbral Member

    Take a look friend : https://www.cossacks3.com/forum/index.php?threads/major-suggestions-for-cossacks-3-game.2977/

    All help is welcome.

    American Conquest was a way better game than Cossacks 1.
    Cossacks 3 needs improvements over American Conquest in terms of food production.

    Just making a copy of Cossacks 1 + better graphics when there is already a better implementation (AC) is a wasted time. Not everyone cares about graphics that is why all mods to Cossacks 1 make the game more similar to AC.

    See the link above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
  6. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    This looks that you miss watched many threads about suggestions for C3 game. There were many discussions in that matter in many, many threads e.g. C3 wish list, AI, Ships, Moral system like C2, Cannon crews, Do you want ship crews, Cossacks -BTW pure remake etc. Few were accidentaly deleted e.g. News and updates discussion.

    Problem is that C3 game is probably ready in 80-90 % and it is hard to believ that developers will inlcude fans new suggestions.
    Nevertheless new ideas and discussions could be interesting for fans and modders I suppose.

    AC was interesting game, but included many poorly implemented things e.g. moral system, buildings garrisons, combat system, trading, ships, crazy Indians, crazy Cossacks etc. C1 game was simpler, dynamic and easier to play for common players.

    However I do agree that C3 game needs more changes than simple copy C1 gameplay with modern graphics.
    AC game included many interesting features, but I prefer simpler C2 game in several matters e.g. avaiable units, simpler formations, moral system, more accurate tactics, cannons crews or economy development works much better there.

    Developers could borrow some fine ideas from their old C1, AC or C2 games and implement it into C3 game.

    Economy matters deserve more changes in this game, that,s why I started this thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  7. Umbral

    Umbral Member

    I didn't miss any topics.

    Have you read about bonuses depending on the type of food production you chose ?

    What do you make of that ?
     
  8. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Yes, I read these proposition, but these looks too complicate and useless. Few of them are quite strange.
    Bear in mind that
    - Coffe was not so popular in Europe that every peasant or soldier could drank it at that period.
    Coffe was important as profitable colonial product.
    - Apples did not allow peasants work faster. Fruits and vegetables were fine suplements in human healthy diet.
    These agricultural products allow gain nice profits too.
    - Profitable products not only went on export, they allow gain profits on home market too. Then government can gather more taxes and this way state could create stronger army, navy, build more buildings etc.
    - Hunting do not needs add extra bonuses, at last hunters or jegers already have better stats in shooting and moving
    - Interesting option is to have a limit of peasants for each plantation, but 50 peasants max is too much.

    Bonuses depending on the type of food production are not necessary. More crops and products could give more food, then trading on market.

    If developers can split plantation for four main cereals, these could represent agricultural progress.
    Various crops and well organized plants allow better sawing, growing, harveting and ploughing.
    Variable agriculture was very important for many nations. Small cereal plant and fishing boats are not enough to represent food production in the game.
     
  9. Umbral

    Umbral Member

    Made the peasants max 25.

    If the food is only visual and choosing one over the other brings no game-play difference (like a bonus to something) then it is more work just for eye candy.

    If they put more food sources and give a small bonus to something for choosing one over the other then it is something worth the time to implement.

    I used coffee as an example. It can be used for Algeria or Turkey or far eastern nations.
     
  10. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Visual effects are important, but my proposition add more posibilities to play more variable national strategies.
    More crops, animals husbandry allow gahter more food, these open different ways for various stategies too.
    Regional diversification also would be possible. East, West, North and South countries had different local conditions and different economies, isn't it.

    For example
    Russia, Turkey, Algeria can create more animals herds while Austria, Poland, Prussia and West Europe can rising their live-stock at farms.
    Britain, France, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal, Venetia can gain profits from colonial products.
    France, Italian and few German states can profited with vine, fuits and vegetables.
    Turkey can produce wool and cotton, and sell it on the market.
    Britain can buy flax, wool and cotton and produce profitable textiles in manufactures, then mechanised factories.
    Sweden can sell more iron and wood, while British can produce more iron products in their modern iron works.
    British innovations and Industrial Revolution can rapidly change and grow up their economy.
    Trading needs more shipping, better transport infrastucture, then mercantile nations could build more ships or carts.
    They could build more dockyards, ports, warehouses and even roads.

    There are more posibilities for different strategies when there are more elements in the game.

    These could be more interesting and more historically accurate than similiar for all nations resources gathering and stone trading tactics.
    More economic aspects do not need special bonuses. But it is worthy implement characteristic elments for each nation into the game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  11. Umbral

    Umbral Member

    Stone trading tactics is basically a bad exploit left unfixed. (unbalanced)

    I agree with you on everything you said.

    Do developers read the suggestion forums ?
     
  12. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    I believe that the developers do read the forums. But most all of their time is in the developing of the game.

    At this point they will not respond to all questions, or suggestions due to the time it would take to interact with all the questions they would get.

    Once Beta gets here we should see much more participation from them here.

    Just my thoughts.

    Daddio
     
  13. grizzgolf

    grizzgolf Member

    I always had issues with my eco in C1
     
  14. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Economy known from C1 game is not enough to represented progress in economy achieved in many European countries in 17th and 18th centuries.

    Developers could take into account that wood cutting, stone pitting, iron, coal and gold mining, as well as strange upgrades in Academy, blacksmith and windmill are not enough to represent economy in C 3 game. Especially crazy stone trading tactics, poor agriculture and gold mining needs improvements.

    Gold mines in Europe were very poor and mined little gold at that period. Even resources rich Russia mined gold mainly in far east provinces on Ural and Siberia. Colonial powers imported gold from their far, far away colonies. However main profits nations earned with production and trade on home and international markets. Industrial progress, mercantile and capitalist economy greatly grow up economical development at that period.

    Developers should predict harder stone pitting and gold mining conditions, introduce commercial profits from production. Less gold mining while more agriculture, manufacturing, shipping, trading and financial services should make more money profits counted in gold.

    Therefore it would be good include in the game
    1. Bankers and banks, allow take a loan in gold repaid later with 5% interests
    2. Craftsmen and craftsmen shops produce various goods sold on market, earn money profits
    3. Manufactures can employ more workers, better organize labour and make more profits
    4. Warehouses can store resources, raw materials and goods needed for mass production
    5. British inventors for Industrial Revolution, metal tools, machines, steam power, chemicals
    6. British textile factory, more effective mass production, allow earn more money profits
    7. British iron works, coal and coke fuel blast furnace, iron mills, earn more money profits
    8. Progress in agriculture, animals husbandry, crops rotation, intensive farming, iron plough
    9. Land transport, horse drawn carts, camel or packhorse caravans
    10.Overseas trading, merchant ships, river barges, inland waterways

    These require only few more buildings, new units and invetions.
     
  15. Umbral

    Umbral Member

    1. Take a loan from who ? The enemy ? How to give back 5% interest when there isn't even enough gold in that period.
    2. Who is the market ?
    3. More workers from were ? Make profits how ?
    4. That is what Warehouses do.
    5. How can this be implemented in the game ?
    6. If you have where to sell it.
    7. Same
    8. This is just technology.
    9. What about them ?
    10. You need to have some distant countries to sell your stuff. Maybe you can chose at the beginning of the game a trade partner and depending on your choices get a bonus.
     
  16. grizzgolf

    grizzgolf Member

    What was the stone trick again?
     
  17. Umbral

    Umbral Member

    All high level players, had to mine stone, research as fast as possible the 300% stone bonus and sell stone for any resources one needed thus making you able to build 10 barracks 10 stables in no time.
     
  18. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    It's something common in times of war to take a loan, it doesn't have to be a state bank or anything a rich merchant could lend for exemple to a king.
    Take for exemple Louis XIV, the sun king (I use him because he is pretty well know), he fought a lot of really costly war (almost 30 years of his personnal reign), to finance them he had to create more tax but even then it wasn't enough to pay for the army in time so he took quantity of loan to all kind of people and the 5% interest that said Nowy are a joke in comparison of the one he had to pay.
    As to reimburse, it doesn't have to be in gold, say Louis XIV took a loan of 100 livre (french currency) and had an interest of 10%, he then had to found afterwards 110 livre (through tax generaly) to pay his creditor.
     
  19. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Some examples

    1. Player can create banker in Town Centre or peasants can build bank which can offer loan in gold 10,000 repaid later with 5% or 10% intersets. Meanwhile player can build his economy, earn profits and repaid loan.
    If he can not do that, his state can go into bankruptcy.

    2. Market is already known buliding in Cossacks games. Working craftemen can earn profits there.

    3. Workers = peasants which can build manufacture building, then go inside to work. They could effectively produce profitable goods and earn gold, better than gold mine in the game.

    4. Warehouses are needed for mass production realized in manufactures, factories or iron works. These buildings could be captur able, then stored materials and goods counted in gold could be nice booty for enemy.

    5. It's easy. British inventors could be new units, gentlemen create in British Town Centre which allow build textile factory, iron works and make agricultural progress. They could go to each factory or iron works to organize effective labour, they allow invent, metal tools, machines, steam power etc. British Industrial Revolution would be great progress in the game.

    6 & 7. British had many places where they can sold their textiles, iron and other industrial goods. Do not you know that they managed trade their products even during Napoleon's Continental Blockade? They sold their products all over the world, therefore Britain became first world's manufacturer at that time. Simply say, British textile factories and iron works could effectively produce profitable goods sold on market. In textile factory and iron works player can earn gold as like in gold mine.

    8. Animal husbandy and intensive farming are not only technology. These are new economy features, easily implementable in the game. Crops rotation GSC aslo could implement into the game, when they split bigger cereals plant on four smaller plants with various crops and ploughed land. Game can automatically change periodicaly these crops. They could give bonnus in food production. Devs also could add new upgrades in windmill or academy.

    9. Devs already showed few types of carts, wagons and pack horses. C2 game already included resourses transportation.
    That was nice and simple feature in the game. They could include this in C 3 game.

    10. Neutral or even enemy ports would be enough to lead trade between players ports. Similar feature already had old AoE1 game. Then GSC could implement merchan ships, river barges and overseas trade into C 3 game too.

    I give some examples above to show how my proposition could works in the game. These features are easy do able.
    Make less or poorer gold mines and stone pits, add few more buildings, few units, inventions or even upgrades which can better represent mercantile economy. These things will more interesting for new C3 game than simple copy paste old economy from C1 game isn't it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
    Umbral likes this.
  20. Umbral

    Umbral Member

    Very good ideas. Someone please implement them.
     
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