C3 economy

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Nowy, Oct 15, 2015.

  1. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I got another wishes to C 3 economy.

    It would be fine when players will not build one megapolis which looks bad.

    In C3 game player could build more faraway towns cetres. It could be interesting build TC and houses close to mines, these will offer more dwellings for miners, then mine upgrades could grow up mine capacity. This way megapolis would not necessary, becouse resoucres could be locate in far away places from strating points.

    Stone walls in real world were never build around the forests, quarries and other resources locations, accross all map, fom border to border. This case needs improvements in the game.

    Then outposts and fortifications as like bastions, castles, forts, fortresses get more sence.

    Gold mines are not necessary in the game. Players could earn gold from manufacturing and trading. This is way bettter than rich gold mines in the game. Gold mines in Europe were very rare and poor at that period. Therefore gold mines in the game are not necessary. Craftsmen, manufactures, factories, merchant ships and trade are much better than few gold mines. Such mines require fixed places marked with yellow dots. Without gold mines there would be more free places for better development and combats.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2016
  2. arpe

    arpe Active Member

    Craftsmen, manufactures, factories, merchant ships and trade changes completely gameplay. These changes suitable to sections MODDING.
     
  3. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    You are wrong.
    These are good elements to implement in vanilla game.
    I guess beata tests give some time to add even new things in the game.
    Craftsmen, manufactures, factories, merchant ships and trade are easily implementable.
    They are much more interesting than insanely rich gold mines and economy known from C1.

    These easily add NEW features wich are interesting for many players.
    I already wrote how they could works in C3 game. These do not change completely game play, only add new features.
     
  4. Grubnessul

    Grubnessul Member

    I can see something like AoE3 did with a trade route and manufactures creating resources work in the game. Anything more detailed will not work in something that is basically a base builder RTS as it will become too detailed and create a completely different game.
     
  5. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    I really dont think that we will see that changes.
    However there is one thing I kind of disliked about C1. It was the super high dependence of mines.
    You lost a mine, well pretty much game over. There should be gold mines as main gold income (otherwiese it wouldnt be cossacks) but I hope for a few changes.

    1) random maps should be less random, one additional mine makes a huge difference, one additional gold mine BEHIND your base (therefore not between you and your enemy) is even better.
    2) you could not so simple destroy mines in real life. they had only 2500 life. normally a mine is a tunnel in a mountain. What happens if you hit the top of the mountain with a mortar or cannon? Well nothing, it is solid rock and can withstand it. Also arrows and stuff should not destroy the building. Mines should not burn. You could easily destroy them by cannons. They should become immune to cannon damage.
    3) A Lost mine is SUCH a DISASTER. How much does it costs for a fully upgrades mine? More than 70.000 gold and a lot of other resources. also a lot of worker. Most stuff you lose you dont care, but mines, no they decide the game. I would like to see some improvements here. Less capacity upgrades, instead one upgrade in the academy to increase gold/coal/iron production.
    4) the mine (since it is so god damm important) should have an auto attack like the log cabin.
    5) upgrades to increase the capacity should also increase maximum life, shield and damage of the mines. 2500 life for a building that costs 50 wood/stone ok,but not enough for a building that costs 100.000+ resources
    6) NO RNG when it comes to mines. If you capture stuff there is a change to capture it or to destroy it. This is totally RNG if I am not wrong. So if you capture a fully upgrades mine (it is invalueable) you have a change to own it or to blow it up. This RNG has a way too big influence. Even if you capture it the enemy should not be able to destroy it instantly. Instead you should have a chance to get it back.

    What I personally will do in one of my mods (if it is possible)
    1) make houses more expensive, 1k wood and 1k stone
    2) let houses level up, after they are constructed the have a experience bar, after 3 minutes they become level 2 houses, after 10 minutes, level 3 and so on.
    3) give houses gold maintenance, level 1 has positive gold maintenance (you are losing money), but the later lavels have negative gold maintenance and you get gold.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2016
  6. ono1

    ono1 Active Member

    at 6) that RNG what you say .... do you mean that when playing vs AI capturing the mine into insta-destroy of mine? that means that AI decided to destroy it microsecond before your capture
     
  7. arpe

    arpe Active Member

    More mines = more capabilities take a peasant
    More mines = more dynamics

    Less mines = easier game
    Less mines = easier to defend a peasants
     
  8. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    This was similar to the system in C2, you would capture a village, Iron, Coal, Gold, even wood, and stone if you had one of my maps. And if you captured it you would take over the resource, upgrades and all. It was a good system, and made villages important part of the game As control was necessary to maintain your economy.
     
  9. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Even devs do not include these ideas it is good to show what they could do in the game to make C3 game more accurate, interesting and better.

    I guess C 3 game can include lot of my ideas for economy. Then game play could be accurate, interesting and better.

    Village system known from from C2 is not necessary, however it would be good when players will get spur to build settlements in the game. It is easy doable. I can imagine such things.

    1. Resources locations and fertile areas could be placed farther from starting points, this prevent build one megapolis.
    2. Implemet resources simple transport, similar to C2, between mines, windmills, town centres, storehouese and ports.
    3. TC and stores gather resources, player will build them close to mines and windmills, this can shrink transport routes.
    4. TC and houses build close mines and windmills offer dwellings, needed for upgrade mines and increase productivity.
    5. TC could create peasant workers, banker and militia squads, the latter could quickly strenghten close defence.
    6. Mines should be hard destructible, but destroyed colse build TC and houses could cramp mine's productivity.
    7. Agriculture variable production and more windmills could employ majority peasants, and produce more food.
    8. Gold mines are not so necessary, players could earn gold mainly from manufacturing and trading.
    9. Craftsmen, manufactures, British factories and iron works could earn gold, better than mines.
    10. Merchant ships could lead simple overseas trade and exchange resources.

    Such economy diversification will spur more settlements and make game more accurate, interesting, and better.
     
  10. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I wonder how devs could improve buildings order and buildings quantity constructed in the game.
    Players know that C1 game allow build strange buildings quantities. They could build many town centres and mines, but only one blacksmith and windmill would be enough to maintain large armies. Similar case was with many barracks, stables, artillery depots, shipyards and only one blacksmith. These cases looks strange and require some tweaks.

    It would be fine include some improvements in C 3 game which allow change build order as fallows.

    a) first Town Centre could be cheap, next one should not be more expensive, but require build next windmills
    b) Town Centre could offer more dwellings, but require from one to four windmills and various cereal plants.
    c) one windmill could produce slower and less food, then player will need more windmills and cereal plants.
    d) mines require resources transport to town centre or seaport, player will build town centres close to mines
    e) mine's upgrades require few houses or town centre build close to mine, dwellings for workers
    f) barrack, stable, artillery depot and shipyard require blacksmith which produce iron goods.
    g) next one barrack, stable, artillery depot and shipyard require next one blacksmith.
    h) blacksmith could make few upgrades for horse shoes, weapons and other goods.
    i) blacksmith allow build manufacture, which produce various goods and earn gold.
    j) England in Industrial Revolution in 18th century could build iron works, textile factories which earn more gold. However these require inventions, investment, supply and steam power.

    This building order is more sensible than many town centres, military buildings built with only one blacksmith and windmill known from C1 game.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  11. Fulcrum

    Fulcrum Active Member

    Nowy, game is in testing stage already, only tweaks would be bugs and issues with hardware. But we`d mod the hell out of it :)

    I did mod the C1 and will share my comments on my own understanding of how gameplay changed:

    - I reduced the stone upgrade
    - made mine upgrades cheaper and some nations such as Ukraine, Russia and Sweden got extra workers in the mines
    - greatly reduced produced food
    - made mercenaries far more expensive but also stronger - they were stronger than a non-upgrded regular and weaker than upgraded ones

    The stone upgrade killed the dynamics of the game. Unfortunately, even if gold mines were cheaper to upgrade ( I made them much cheaper ) and someable to accommodate up to 107 peasants, game development in the early stage was slow. However, I think that if it is tweaked more, it will eventually reach a balance and will make the game fun. In such mod mine durability should be increased to at least 4000.

    Food was another thing I changed and I think it worked out nicely as the larger you go, the more windmills you need. It become a resource that was as hard to gather as any other in the game. I would be very much thumbs up on a reduced food tweak.

    Mercs played a bigger role, although still not able to stand against well trained regular army, but sometimes could save the day :)

    I think peasant production speed should be dependent on the number of houses and town centers to be very expensive. In many games players did not bother to build houses, especially once in the 18c. I very much enjoyed the American Conquest model where houses actually produced peasants.
     
  12. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    I will make houses more interesting by giving them negative gold maintenance. Unfortunately negative gold values were not possible in C1 but in AC. Also a small self devensive ability (weak log cabin) to kill one weak soldiers but not 10+ strong units. .

    Main problem with houses was that every one can be easily captured, more stuff to defend = more soldiers are required or more stone walls. especially if you send a hussar through the city it was very difficult to defend that all.
     
  13. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Testing stage allow change some things e.g. game balanse, units stats, building costs and few other requirements too.
    I stll dream that GSC will get reflections that fans want to see more changes in C 3 game which make this game more accurate, interesting and better with more realistic game play than old C1 game.

    As you see, my points from a to h are easily adaptable in this game. These are mainly changes in costs, requirements and upgrades compositions. Even resources transport is implementable, such feature already worked well in C2 game.
    Next points, i and j, also are implementable. These require three new buildings, manufacture, textile factory and iron works, but devs could transfer such buldings from C2 game I suppose.

    I think that more new things in vanilla C3 game is much better than only limited changes wrapped in new graphic.
    Modding is fine however it would be much beter when devs make more changes in vanilla game.
    They know better game limits, could work faster and implement more new things in the game.

    I see that you changed some things, but these led to easy predictable troubles. When mod change only few things e.g. reduced stone upgrade killed game dynamic. However when mod will include more changes e.g. add craftsmen and manufactures which could earn gold, these changes will improve game dynamic without a doubt.
    More gold is better than more stone I suppose.

    Game development in early stage also could be speed up using bankers loan 10.000 in gold repaid later.
    Building costs could be reduced e.g. houses could be cheaper, then player will build more houses than town centres.
    There is not necessary increase costs for next buildings, better make requirements for next buildings and upgrades.

    For instance.
    Next town centre should require build next windmills and cereal plants, becouse population needs lot of FOOD and these can not be produced with only one or two windmills for many town centres, as it was in C1 game.

    Next barracks, stables, artillery depots and shipyards require next blacksmith, becouse they need more iron goods.
    Only one blacksmith can not produce lot of iron products needed for large army and navy.

    When player will create next windmills and blacksmiths then game will not need insanely increase costs for next town centres, barracks, stables, depots and shipyards as it was in C1 game.

    Town centres, barracks and houses could create more dwellings, then population growth will not cramped in early stage of game play. Devs also could add some town houeses build around town centres. These will give more dwellings and better look for towns.

    Windmill with small cereal plant could produce less food, then more cereal plans will be needed in the game.
    Animal herds and livestock and variable agriculture would be well come too. This is more realistic than one or two small cereal plants which produce food for few thousands units in C1 game. One blacksmith also looked funny in that game.

    Town centres build close to each other was insane feature too.
    Better implement resourece transport, then player will build next TC close to mines to shorten trade routes.
    Recources yellow dots could be better placed on map. It is funny when in C1 game lot of resources yellow dots were placed close to each other. Less resources dots would be better, then market and trade would be more important. Make lower buildings and units costs, then less mines will be enough.

    As you see changing costs, upgrades and requirements allow devs easily implement more sensible changes which make this game more accurate, iteresting and better.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  14. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    You mean that You want to see.

    Testing will change only small changes now.
    +/- one attack for a unit, or change the price for some upgrades.

    Nothing more.
    They will 100% not add new features because the are already behind time schedule and every new aspect would require way more testing time. They want to release the game as soon as possible and I think the majority of fans as well. I want the game now and working without bugs. no stopping units or crashing games, that is the majority. Everything else can be done by mods.
     
    arpe likes this.
  15. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Hmm I am fan and together with some other fans which write here we want to see more changes in C 3 game.
    Look at this forum threads statistics. News and updates are the most popular, many threads about game new features also are popular, these could suggest that fans are interested in new matters and want to se more changes in NEW game, isn't it.

    You also discussed lot of changes.

    During tests devs can change some things which can improve the game.
    Units and building stats, and upgrades are easy change able. These allow implement new features e.g. cheaper houses allow build more houses and less close built town centres. Reduced food production in one windmill make posibility to create more windmills and plants in the game. More windmills and blacksmiths required for next TC, barracks, stables, depots, shipyards also are easy implementable. These cases simply improve game play, becouse make it more sensible.

    Mods are fine however it would be much better include these simple changes in vanilla game.
    These simple changes make C3 game more accurate, interesting and better. Then modders could add next aspects, they will not need to improve basic things.
     
  16. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Silence on this forum is so borring, fans still have not any real news.
    So, I can add something for C3 economy matters.

    Agriculture in the game should be main economy secotr which employ majority of peasants.
    However food production needs some improvements and innovations.

    It would be fine include animal herds, farm livestock, different crops and agricultural progress.
    Animlas already were presented in C1, C2, AC games, but they were poorly implemented into the game.

    Devs could take into account that animal husbandry was important, especially in East Europe.
    West Europe also led intensive livestock husbandry for dairy, meat, lether and wool products.

    Devs could add common pastures with
    - cattle, horses, sheep and swine for north countries
    - camels, goats, horses and sheep for south countries, Algeria and Tukey

    These animal herds could add some food and could be captured by the enemy.

    One cereal plant should allow produce less food, then more crop plants are necessary to feed one town centre.
    Agricultural revolution could make greater progress in agricultural techniques and implement crop rotation.

    Crop rotation based on four fileds.
    1. Cereal plant as basic food production
    2. Cash crops, fruits, grape, olives in south countries or fruits, potatoes and vegetables in north countries.
    3. Fibre crops, cotton in south or flax and hemp in north, these allow led textile production and gain profits
    4. Fallow land, after agricultural revolution could cultivate fodder crops, turnips and clover.

    These four fields create around windmill could temporarily rotate crops which greatly increase food productivity.
    Four filed crops would be available as upgrades in Academy. These could increase food productivity and represent agricultural progress.

    Fishing
    Add invention better methods of fish preservation, cleaning, salt or smoke curing, which increase food production.
    Add new Dutch herring buss, factory ship in the off-season used as normal merchant cargo vessel. This multirole business model made fishery especially profitable.

    Trading
    Add Dutch fluyt, merchant ship, which was cheaper to build, carried twice the cargo and could be handled by a small crew. These common merchant vessels made overseas trade profitable and other nations copied this ship type.

    New techniques and designs
    1. Wind-driven sawmill for shipyard could increase productivity in shipbuilding.
    2. Sawmills for Baltic countries Poland, Prussia, Russia and Sweden could represent greater wood production.
    3. New ship designs, merchant fluyt and escort type sloop of war to increase overseas trading abilities.
    4. Horse drawn barge for interrior waterways to increase transport and river crossing.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  17. Fulcrum

    Fulcrum Active Member

    The military part of the mod I did was actually quite nice ( well, according to me :D ). One change I liked a lot was weapon classes, fixed the display of units with sabres that were actually set to piercing in the game, that made light cavalry quite inefective against armoured of any kind but taking bigger role when armor was abolished in the 18c. Also reduced the defense of heavy cavalry against piercing attack, but they were set so if heavy cavalry attacked pikemen in formation, they`d be equal in strength ( may even lose ) so would an economical loss to the cavalry, but if pikemen were not in formation they were devastated. Same for other units with piercing attack, where slashing attack I made higher in damage ( up to 30 for the roundshier and l infantryman ) but such troops were very inefective against armoured enemies and heavy cavalry. Also increased defense against shot ( as shot and reloading were already up by other modders ) for armoured units and one of the toughest against shots and grapeshot was the roundshier - so good to have a line of them in front of other troops when storming an artillery position. It did turn out nice, I have to say, as tactics changed completely - no more rush into anything but player had to have different types of units to counter other units and throwing light cavalry and even heavy against musketeer formation was insane. Same as attacking cuirassier regiments with hussars.

    I think they need to increase formation bonus, definitely.
     
  18. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I wonder what changes developers prepared for C 3 game economy?
    They announced only some cosmetic things as like new graphic and decreased stone upgrades.
    I find that more changes are necessary. Here you are some things.

    Economy ideas worthy to implement in C 3 game or future DLC.

    1. Animal husbandry, livestock breeding on pastures.
    2. Bankers loans offered in Town Centres, repaid later with 5-10% interests.
    3. Craftsmen virtually working inside houses, blacksmiths, depots can earn some gold
    4. More dwellings needed for growing population, e.g. each town house = 100 housing places
    5. Effective employment of peasants working inside mines, manufactures and dockyards
    6. Merchantmen in the market can exchange resources, merchantment ships lead overseas trade
    7. Meadows with haystacks and barns allow increase livestock breeding
    8. Manufactures can employ more workers inside and earn more gold
    10. More crop plants types for cereal, cash, fiber crops and fallow land

    Effective employment

    Animals herdsmen = 1- 2 peasants could guarding animals on pasture
    Craftsmen = 1- 10 peasants working inside house or blacksmith can earn gold
    Crop plant = 1-10 peasants could cultivating and gathering crops for food
    Storehouse = 5 - 20 peasants could gathering stone and wood
    Gold mine = 5 - 30 peasants could working inside gold mine
    Iron and coal mine = 5 - 90 peasants could working inside mine
    Manufacture = 10 - 40 workers could working inside and earning more gold
    Dockyard = 10- 40 workers could working inside, they build boats and ships

    Great Britain during British Industrial Revolution in 18th century could implement new inventions, build industrial buildings and effectively employ more workers as fallows

    Iron works = 40-80 workers working inside and earning more gold
    Textile factory = 40-80 workers working inside and earning more gold
    Steam engine = allow increase coal mine, iron works and textile factory production

    Dwellings with more housing places


    Town centre with close build 4 town houses = 400 dwellings
    Town house = 100
    House = 20
    Barrack = 200
    Barrack for 18th century = 240
    Field camp tent = 10

    Housing places in garrisoned fortifications
    Blockhouse = 12
    Tower = 12
    Bastion = 40
    Castle = 60
    Fort = 120
    Fortress = 300

    Building order with bolded new ideas.

    1. Town centre = create peasants, banker and close build 4 town houses offer 400 dwellings
    2. Windmill = build together with 4 plants for cereal, cash, fiber crops and fallow land
    3. Storehouse = limited peasants can gather main building materials stone and wood
    4. Market = merchantmen in the market exchange resources, merchant ships lead overseas trade
    5. Blacksmith = produce iron tools and weapons, allow invent new technologies
    6. Academy = allow invent new technologies, create officers and General Commanders
    7. Houses = rapidly growing population needs dwellings, each house offer 20, town house 100
    8. Mines = up to 30 peasants can work in gold and up to 90 peasants in iron and coal mines
    9. Manufacture = 10-40 peasants working inside manufacture can earn more gold
    10. Church = create priests, they can heal wounded men
    11. Barrack = create infantry units, offer 200 dwellings
    12. Stable = create cavalry units, needs some horses on close pasture
    13. Artillery depot = create artillery guns, packhorses, horse drawn limbers and supply wagons
    14. Diplomatic centre = create mercenary, diplomats and spies
    15. Dockyard = create seamen and vessels, sea port allow lead overseas trade
    16. Fortifications = blockhouse, tower, bastion, castle, fort, fortress, gabion, trench, redoubt

    Army operating far in the field should build camp for field headquarter and magazine tents
    Army operating far in the field without camp could suffer with desertion, disease, starvation


    17. Barrack available in 18th century = create 18th c. infantry, offer 240 dwellings

    Great Britain during British Industrial Revolution could build next buildings in 18th century
    18. Iron works = employ inside more peasants, they produce more iron and earn more gold
    19. Textile factory = employ inside more peasants, they produce textiles and earn more gold
    20. Steam engine = increase coal mine, iron works and textile factory production


    I believe skilled GSC developers could include these mentioned ideas in C3 game or future free DLC or add-ons.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  19. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I watched some videos with multi player games and noticed how poorly were receated and balanced econmy development, building order and peasant employment in C3 game.

    There still exist already known C1 strange things
    - crazy build order, several town halls, barracks, stables and artillery depots could be build too close each other
    - houses and few other buildings with relaltively too little housing places needed for large populations
    - buildings, stone pits, crop plants, forests and crazy fortifications create unbelievable large megalopolis
    - insanely big peasant crowds working in stone pits, forests and crop plants, looks bad and unrealistic
    - long walls and lonely towers build around big megalopolis on too big areas, even around forests
    - strange upgrades, can suddenly increase food production or resources gathering
    - few windmills and small crop plants can feed large population and lot of horses
    - unbelievable rich gold mines can employ as many peasants as other mine
    - marginal manufacturing roles, one blacksmith can supply big population
    - artillery depot can create only artillery guns, there no horse drawn wagons
    - shipyards miraculously do not require any workforce and manpower
    - crowded ships can stay too close coast line or even far in the land
    - stone resource and market tricks still rule the game economy

    All these things prove that C3 requie more changes and improvements to make game play more sensible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  20. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    That's not surprising, evrything you said may seems strange to you but they are game mechanic and since Cossacks 3 is a remarke of the first at the moment, well it's the same thing !
     
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