Grenadier fragmentation upgrade is rediculous and needs to be changed

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Original-Cossacks-Player, May 17, 2017.

  1. Original-Cossacks-Player

    Original-Cossacks-Player Active Member

    Something has to be done with the Grenadier fragmentation upgrade: VII supply with new grenades (fragmentation grenades efficiency +1500)
    This is ridiculous, there is no point even making walls or any other structure for that matter, only 5 Grenadiers can destroy a fully upgraded tower (the 1 blacksmith and 2 academy upgrades) in literally 5 seconds its gone, an entire section of wall can be destroyed in seconds, even cannons, howitzers and mortars cannot do such damage despite the fact they were historically way more powerful and the fact that Grenadiers rarely if at all used their crude grenades to destroy buildings.

    Every game its the same strategy, players just build Grenadiers, do the upgrade, attack your wall and within seconds they are in your base, I've even had enemies destroy an entire wall section so that the map is open, by the time any of your units can reach them it's too late they are in your base. It makes having walls obsolete, seriously what's the point?

    It needs to be reduced massively, you can have the fragmentation grenades efficiency upgrade, but reduce it massively to 50% or 100% and reduce the throwing time of the grenades.

    It's by far the stupidest thing in the game.
  2. scarfacemperor

    scarfacemperor New Member

    Grenadiers are more of a finisher unit than a regular unit. They train slower, have less firepower (and I believe a shorter range meaning musketeers shoot first, to add insult to injury) and are more expensive than 18th century musketeers, meaning that if you focus on them while your enemy prefers musketeers, the odds aren't in your favour for a pitched battle. And it doesn't matter how strong grenadiers are against buildings, if all of them are murdered by better shooters before they come anywhere close from the city.

    Yes you can still make most of your army musketeers with a few units of grenadiers but the resources you put in their upgrades will be what you don't put in anything else. So unless you play on 2 hours peace time, it's not a wise choice IMO until your enemy is weakened to the point that he is not a threat anymore.

    I see grenadiers as making the job of burning a city to the ground much faster than if you had to spend half an hour with your cannons to destroy everything. Just to make the game end faster once it has basically ended. So having a massively powerful attack ? Not much of a problem IMO.
    Falc09, wildlumberjack and Daddio like this.
  3. (OC)Fotheringill

    (OC)Fotheringill Active Member

    In the vanilla game;

    Grenadiers produce more slowly. You need a whole lot of them to be effective once the wall is breached. The player who turtles in his base will lose most of the time because of the fact he is turtling in the first place.

    Use towers and artillery to destroy troops coming in through breach. Have troops mobile to get to the breach area to defend. Remember, the enemy's supply and reinforcement lines are very long, yours are not. Be ready to cut the same if he is streaming toward your base.

    All of this being said, try the OCMOD3 (just subscribe to it in Steam Workshop) which will vastly complicate matters and make for a much better game without going two hours of nothing happening until you are at his gates with 6000 units.
  4. Aistis1990

    Aistis1990 Active Member

    Never had 6000 troops here :-( ... I think grenadier vanilla upgrades are okay. Maybe their defence and bayonet should be tougher than musketeers while muskets are good at range. Their grenade upgrade is alright and I really like it. I can't understand why this post been made in the first place :)
  5. scarfacemperor

    scarfacemperor New Member

    They already are. When we compare them (for generic europeans units) :

    Grenadiers have more hit points (120 vs 100)
    Grenadiers have more melee attack (60 vs 40 when fully upgraded)
    Grenadiers have more melee defence (12 vs 10)

    (firepower equal, 25, but musketeers have a slightly longer range. Btw why isn't range showed in unit statistics and only hidden in game files ?)

    That means that in melee, the grenadier needs only 2 hits to kill the musketeer while the musketeers needs 5 hits to kill the grenadier. That's massive, the grenadier absolutely murders the musketeer at close range. When shooting, a grenadiers needs 4 shots to kill while a musketeer needs 5. So at equal numbers, the grenadiers win. However, a grenadier costs 160 resources while a musketeer costs 90 resources, and 6 seconds to make instead of 4.5, meaning that depending on what limits you, you can get :

    133 musketeers for every 100 grenadiers if production capacity limits you
    178 musketeers for every 100 grenadiers if resources limit you.

    (there is a third limit, your population pool, but unless you play on a very long peace time you won't be bottlenecked by that)

    Meaning the only way grenadiers can win against musketeers in term of cost-efficiency or time-efficiency is if you go into melee. And that's a bad idea since they'll be exposed to the more numerous musketeer firepower, and stationary formations have more attack and defence bonuses. The melee attack of bayonet units is more of a defence against a zerg rush of cavalry or melee infantry that would be pass the barrage fire. Perhabs using pikemen as a meat shield to cover the advance of grenadiers would be a good idea (you'd need to upgrade the pikes though... expensive...) but overall musketeers would win most battles though sheer numbers.
  6. -Fisher-

    -Fisher- New Member

    Well frag grenades are the real reason why you would pick grenadiers instead of musketeers. Otherwise like scarfacemperor just said, 133 musketeers and 100 grenadiers are roughly similar in battle against other troops (currently, grenadiers are a bit more the elite soldiers i.e. defend themselves better at melee, but musketeers are more numerous i.e. better at long range).

    I like the grenadiers very much, as they are the hard counter against buildings, towers, and buildings defense upgrades (+75 defense or so...).
    If you nerf too much their ability, what would prevent players from spamming towers and stone walls? You have relatively limited arty, and it's slow and expensive. Grenadiers are a cool choice for the current gameplay.
    Perhaps it could be remplaced with another close range demolition ability though, to make the game more historically accurate.
  7. [AAC]Clay_Van0ranje

    [AAC]Clay_Van0ranje New Member

    Just pay better attention to your surroundings, if you see an enemy coloured dot on the map move to your walls, move your howitsers close to the wall to lob a few shots and then the enemy coloured dot dissapears from your map before any damage is done.
    If there is the "no artillery" option chosen, well then you shouldn't even have walls.
    You can not break the game, and then complain that the game is broken.
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