Moral system like Cossacks 2

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Pales, May 21, 2015.

  1. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    Let us hope not. :)

    There are enough games out there already that are crazy click fests. A game of decision making with formations would make a nice change. That doesn't mean I want complicated fire orders. That would be too much for 10,000 troops.
     
  2. Field Marshall

    Field Marshall Active Member

    Moral is definitely key in battles, so there should be some sort of system in the game that includes it. Overall the level strategy should actually be based on who has the superior strategy, or who can respond to each situation with the best strategy rather than who is faster and has the best clicking and macro ability. Not saying that speed and macro should not be a factor. I just think that speed and macro should be a small factor compared to overall strategy.
     
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  3. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    Yes, if I could put a percentage factor on it I would say a good RTS would be;

    80% about making correct tactical and strategic decisions for units, formations and armies; (strategy is military macro)
    10% about executing those decisions (micro); and
    10% about resource and upgrades ability (resource-upgrade macro).

    Initially, when a person is first learning the game he (or she) will feel the game is 99% about resources and upgrades. But once a person becomes competent and drilled at resourcing and upgrading (doing it all automatically) then they will feel a well designed game is mostly about the military decision making.
     
  4. Masher

    Masher Active Member


    That is what i said, if they do add the morale it needs to be an option to turn it off or on. If they for what ever reason cannot add a on/off switch, then they need to stick to their original idea and leave it out. After all their aim is to recreate that feeling of Cossacks 1 not Cossacks 2.

    A on/off option makes everybody happy.
     
  5. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Exactly! Moral and fatigue are key in warfare. Moral is one from only few general factors in real Art of War.
    Speed and macro are important, but in reality these are only ways how to exploit moral and fatigue factors.

    Real Time Strategy game have to include main strategy factors. Therefore moral and fatigue are must in C3 game.
    If on/off option makes everebody happy, GSC should inculde this option in C 3 game. Everybody will happy, isn't it. :D

    This game should include more changes and key warfare factors which already existed in their games.
    This include moral and fatigue systems too.
     
  6. Field Marshall

    Field Marshall Active Member

    You don't really have to have an on/off button in my opinion. You could just have a standard morale and a built up morale so that if you can manage the morale of your army well and your enemy chooses to focus on something else rather than morality, you will be given some sort of strategic advantage in combat. Unless you are referring to an on/off feature before we actually start the game, like in the lobby. If is a feature like for example cheat on/off i think it would be fine, but then it wouldn't make it competitive so I'm not sure.
     
  7. Masher

    Masher Active Member

    If you played the original Cossacks you would understand why many do not like the morale and fatigue system of Cossacks 2. They both have a big impact on game-play, Cossacks 1 plays very differently to Cossacks 2 and so we now have 3 groups of people. 1 group doesn't care, another group hates morale and wants Cossacks 1 style game-play, the other group loves morale and wants a Cossacks 2 style game-play.

    The only way to satisfy all is for a on/off option on morale and fatiuge. See if there is no option then they cannot add morale without going back on their word of saying that Cossacks 3 will play just like Cossacks 1.

    Cossacks 1 had many options you could set before starting a game, morale will have to be one of those options in Cossacks 3 if the devs do change their mind and decide to add a morale system.

    Both games were very competitive with and without morale. They just played very differently in terms of battles.
     
  8. Field Marshall

    Field Marshall Active Member

    Oh, I have not played C2 so I had no idea there was a system in C2. I was just speaking of it with the experience of C1. I will have to try C2 and see what people didn't like about their morale system. As i said before, if the feature is before you start the game it should be fine.
     
  9. Masher

    Masher Active Member

    Many liked the morale system so it's not as if its a bad system. It actually just comes down to personal preference really. Cossacks 2 is smaller scale, smaller armies and no navies. Yet because of this sacrifice you get morale and fatigue, all units are in formations and gameplay while slower feels a lot more tactical because of it. Yet, imagine a Cossacks 1 style battle with huge mass of troops and a morale system could be very chaotic. So i wouldn't call it a bad system it's just different.

    As a lover of Back to War i personally don't want morale and fatigue, that said i would love the option to be able to choose if i want morale on or off before starting a battle. It makes sense since lovers and haters of morale could both play the game the way they enjoy it the most.
     
  10. Field Marshall

    Field Marshall Active Member

    Did they have like in AoE3 General or special units that made the armies around the more powerful in C2? If they didn't that would be a great feature related to the moral system.
     
  11. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    In Cossacks 2 you had drummer, officer and standard bearers that you could add to the formation, I don't remember exactly what each were doing, basically they raise the morale and the attack a bit, they are really usefull but the important part is keeping the formation alive as to give them an experience advantage. Experience would make them stronger with huge advantage, more attack and morale.
    The morale was a key factor, as unit would flee the fight if they didn't have enough, unit dispersed had poor morale and flee almost at the first casuality, useless, so you had to put your men in formation for them to fight, then they would have higher morale and could gain experience.
    To this you add the fatigue system, when stamina of the unit was depleted they would lose morale rapidly up to the breaking point (then they would basically flee for nothing), you had to manage this well because apart from marching on the road in column formation (good only to march on the road) and firing every other action costed stamina. And I must say the units extenuated damn to fast in Cossacks 2
     
  12. ZooM | Eric

    ZooM | Eric Member

    Yes, twice as much stamina would be enough.
     
  13. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I do not thinks so. Never get into such troubles when you know how to exploit morale and fatigue systems.

    In real world squads sometimes broke and fled even without combat. During pitched battles inexperienced soldiers runaway after one or few volleys or artillery shots or cavalry pressure. Therefore hold the line, kept order were not easy for many commanders.

    That's why moral and motivation was so important.
    Good commanders usually well prepared and motivated their soldiers to brave combats.
    They know well how to exploit soldiers morale and fatigue.

    Therefore soldiers should be well trained, supplied and time to time take a rest in relatively sefety places.
    The game should present such events and prevent from stupidly unreal marches across all map and untiring combats.

    Horrible big battle kill ratio also should be changed in the game. In reality majority soldiers survived even bloody battles.
    Many run away and many can withdrew. These cases should be showed in the game.

    Soldiers are not fantastic robot clones which do not need take a reast, drink and eat something between combats.

    Dynamic gameplay is possible even with hard morale and fatigue system.
    This is a case of well organized squads which can move in good pace. When squad would include officers from the begining then players will not need push the batton on individual soldieres. They can swiftly manage well organized army and broken squads can exchange new created squads. Then moral and fatigue would not be a problem.
     
  14. Field Marshall

    Field Marshall Active Member

    Morale makes the game more realistic. For example is widely known that people who fight for their motherland and have nowhere else to go tend to win more often than those who fight for payment. In term of morale, mercenaries should have much lower morale than nation soldiers. The problem is properly implementing the feature into the game in away that can be heavily exploited while being simple to manage at the same time.
     
  15. Masher

    Masher Active Member

    There is a fine line in games where realism impacts on fun. Having units break and run before they even reach battle might be very realistic if it's a long march, but for a game like Cossacks i do not find that fun at all. I just find it tedious. Yes it's easy to avoid such things happening but it just slows everything down.
     
    [RO]Proof likes this.
  16. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    I do not think that morale and fatigue just slow everything down. If you plan and execute well your operations, you never meet problems with morale and fatigue. Take in mind that I never get into such troubles in C2 game.
    What is funny, I play faster games in C2 than C1 when I try execute here more realistic tactics and do not use gigantic mobs as main battle tactics.

    These clearly shows that morale and fatigue do not slow everything down.
     
  17. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    I dont like moral systems because I hate it if my soldiers don't do exaclty as I wish. It might be realistic, that soldiers flee if there are outnumbered but I want full control of my soldiers. It is for me the same as a unit saying
    "sorry but I don't want to shoot this enemy or go to position x."
    In general I like realism but I prefere 100% control of my units.
     
    [RO]Proof likes this.
  18. Snuffy

    Snuffy Active Member

    In American Conquest - Divided Nation, if troops became unorganized, (individual units as opposed to regiments,) and you had a headquarters tent and a hospital tent, the stragglers would eventually find their way back to the headquarters and hospital tents. There they could be incorporated into new units being produced and reorganized into new fighting regiments.
     
  19. FOARP

    FOARP New Member

    C2 had some excellent features that should not be dismissed - the morale system was definitely one of them.

    It made the game much more tactical, meant that you could not simply send them through rough terrain and expect them to be 100% once they reached their destination, meant that a collapse on your flank could cause your entire line of collapse (as happened in history on more than one occasion).
     
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  20. Fulcrum

    Fulcrum Active Member

    C2 had a major problem, however. The morale/fatigue system, the tactical aspect of the game and the variety and realism made it a very complicated game. Me personally, I was shocked at how well it was made to this aspect and absolutely adore this game. Problem is, most people want a game where you sent two zealots and three marines with attack everything on the way. When C1 was released, we played it locally for whole nights - there were local computer clubs where all types of PC games came, many, who enjoyed strategy games, tried Cossacks on my referrals and most commented: "This is a brilliant game but it is very complicated". They liked it so much they just stayed the whole night to watch us play and you all know, compared to C2 tactical system, it was a piece of sugar candy. I hope one day we`d see a remake of C2 too.
     
    Ftoomsh and Daddio like this.
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